Reboot: Determining Our Canon

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Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:23 pm

I think the major difficulty that has come out of the proposal is how do we determine what is our canon. Currently, we have differing opinions on what should be included. Obviously the baseline we start with is Disney Canon. But how do we add to that, assuming we want to? This is a tricky subject, and one that I’d like to get right the first time so we don’t have to revisit this issue a host of times down the road.

Two things aren’t in contention:
First, that there are Legends elements that some people would like to include in our canon.
Second, that people are amenable to including Legends elements into our canon.

One suggestion is that if someone wants to add something to canon (Like a Balmorra, or a currently Legends class of Mon Cal Cruiser), it comes to a vote. This is clearly the most democratic and most inclusive, but also potentially the most time consuming. We have to have a vote and have to have a week or two weeks where the issue can be discussed and is held in limbo, so to speak. It brings back potentially constant votes.

Another suggestion is that this determination is made by the Story Coordinator. Now, I know I’m the one suggesting these two options, and I’m also the Story Coordinator, so it might come across as controlling, but I view these two as the extremes on the spectrum, and maybe we can find a happy medium. Obviously, all Story Coordinator decisions would be reviewable by the Mods, should the person petitioning the Story Coordinator feel as though their arguments weren’t heard or there wasn’t enough time between the Coordinator hearing the request and making the decision.

To me, the second option is very streamlined but also very exclusive of others’ thoughts, whereas the former is an easily very sludging process but is also very inclusive of others’ thoughts.

I think if we can figure this part out, then most, if not all, issues regarding the proposal as it currently stands will dissipate.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Pryde » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:57 pm

I'm partial to just letting the story coordinator handle it. The minute we let people come in and add input we get bogged down (I'm sorry but it's true). If a decision needs to be made I'd rather it be made immediately so long as there is an understanding that we're approaching story telling the way we were before (i.e. It isn't just a flat out no but rather a, "that doesn't really work the way you proposed it so let's try this...," kind of thing).
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Vox » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:13 pm

I honestly don't like the idea of a Story Coordinator. I like the idea of having a set in stone structure that determines certain things. Obviously we'll have to adjust as we go because there are certain things we just won't know until the situation comes up. Giving one person overall dominion over things just doesn't sit well in the area of creativity with me. We don't want to limit people's creativity but we do need to have guardrails to keep them in a certain arena to operate.

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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:25 pm

Well the SC thing is in the main proposal itself. If you have an issue with it as a whole offer another solution there.

But okay, you don't like option 2. Great. Does that mean you like option 1? If not you need to give option 3.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Pryde » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:46 pm

The original purpose of the story coordinator is to have a check that ensures that all stories mesh together without too much trouble. The story coordinator was never meant to be a gateway and neither was he meant to have the power to flat out refuse ideas. If someone had an idea that contradicted someone else the story coordinator's primary function was to work with the author to find a way to make it work. This was faster than approaching the board with ideas because people often started arguments and the idea died out before it even got any traction. If we're going to go with an option three then the only thing I can see working is a set of guidelines we can all use to police ourselves, but then we run the risk of bogging down the forum with too many rules and we couldn't possibly account for every inevitably. That's why I think the story coordinator is the best option. It's the fastest way to get something done and (ideally) offers the most freedom.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Archangel » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:51 pm

I like the option where we're generally reasonable people, and we can add things to canon that make no difference to canon, but make writing our stories easier and more Star Wars-y.

I mean, the rules about being overpowered are still in the proposal, which means no Sun Crushers, no Eclipse Star Destroyers, no Errant Venture, no Valley of the Jedi (even though Ruusan is canon). Do we really need someone/a group of someones to give approval so we can use a species (not the Vong, not the Killiks, not the Ssi-Ruuvi, probably not the Croke, for the same reasons as above) or a planet (not Zonoma Sekot, and I would have ruled out Rakata Prime if it weren't already canon) or a ship (excepting those too powerful, of course)?

Most people are aware when something they want to bring in is too powerful. If they try to fit it in under the radar, that would be a problem, but a risk I'm willing to take. Enough people here read each other's stories that noticing a problem like that wouldn't take terribly long--and even if it did, we could still move it to the Stories board if they try to take over the Galaxy with it.

I mean, I usually don't research what ship or weapon or random alien I want until I'm halfway through the sentence where I first mention it. It seems extraordinarily unnecessary to put that post on hold, go PM a Story Coordinator or post on the RP OOC board requesting permission to use this random thing or creature, and only after getting approval (anywhere from a day to a week later) can I actually post.

I mean, heck, thinking back to, say, my introductory post for Consecro Nadeus, one of my first solid characters on the MBT. The scaledog and the planet Goerim I made up, but I'd have had to stop that post for (1) vibrodaggers, (2) a scent mask, (3) the Epicanthix species, and (4) a Z-10 Seeker. I could have held that thread up for a month with a little effort. Do we really think that's necessary?

In the event I am overruled, I vote Option 2, because I waste enough time between idea and published post; at least Mir replies promptly to messages and seems generally reasonable.

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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:58 pm

I appreciate being considered generally reasonable.

And I'm always available on FB or text if PM strikes people as being too slow.

I already have to answer calls and texts on the weekend for work, doing it for you yokels isn't that much more difficult. Besides, like 3 people here already have my cell as it stands, and most of us are already friends on FB.

I'm going to refrain from offering counters to anyone's opinion or proposals to allow for the maximum amount of people to voice some kind of opinion before we get bogged down in arguing things. Because offering counters is something I normally do.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Archangel » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:00 pm

In legalese, no less.

It's one of the things that makes you seem generally reasonable.

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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:02 pm

Another +10!

But you're still -4 million and change for making me miss my cats.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Cadden » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:08 pm

I, personally, fail to see why we can't just port over how we currently enforce things into the new canon. Piggybacking off of what Arch is saying, we do currently have but one rule: don't be a dick. Add to that, "If you feel you might have to ask first, better ask first," and I can see most issues disappearing right there.

We keep the story coordinator, but keep that as a resource, not as a check and balance. If you want to use a vibrosword, use a friggin' vibrosword. But if you want to command a fleet of Star Destroyers as a renegade Imperial warlord, then that's where the story coordinator becomes a necessity (please don't lynch me if I missed a detail in the proposal that would shoot that down, I'm just using a random example, here). To the new folks that may join us, list some examples of where said necessity comes in. Otherwise, who cares if soldier Snuffy uses a E-15A blaster rifle? Every one of us knows what is "reasonable" and what isn't "reasonable." Otherwise, we wouldn't be limited by the one rule we currently have.

(Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting rewriting the main rules, though my thoughts on what they are/ought to be have not changed. The above is specific to the issue revolving around the story coordinator and whatnot.)
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by xfiend1013 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:14 pm

I'm with Arch and Cadden here. I'm sure they both just winced.

Thing is: Adding very Star-Wars things is going to happen, and I don't think most of us want to wait on someone to come in and tell us "yes, that non-canon shipyard DID produce a variant Firespray 20 years ago and it WOULD be available!"

It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. If someone's running around with Gundams and a Jedi that's just like Spiderman, then we bother THEM, not the people doing things the right way.

In that case (as in, someone reads your thread and goes 'whoa, time travel?") it should be A: Handled by a coordinator, and B: If the coordinator can't handle it, a vote.

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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:25 pm

If I'm getting a sense of what X is talking about, explaining it in a more linear rules basis, it's:

Allow people to do what they want, but if something flies in the face of what is established Exodus Canon, the story coordinator has the ability to step in, and question them on it. If a compromise cannot be found, then the issue goes to a vote. In essence, this combines the intent of options 1 and 2.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by xfiend1013 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:47 pm

Mir wrote:If I'm getting a sense of what X is talking about, explaining it in a more linear rules basis, it's:

Allow people to do what they want, but if something flies in the face of what is established Exodus Canon, the story coordinator has the ability to step in, and question them on it. If a compromise cannot be found, then the issue goes to a vote. In essence, this combines the intent of options 1 and 2.
This is what I was saying, but as rules.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Starlight » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:01 pm

I'm all for reasonability. So what them up there said (mix 1/2)
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Pryde » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:07 pm

I'm good with that too.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Cadden » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:22 pm

Yes, essentially that, Mir.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Vox » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:35 pm

Mir wrote:If I'm getting a sense of what X is talking about, explaining it in a more linear rules basis, it's:

Allow people to do what they want, but if something flies in the face of what is established Exodus Canon, the story coordinator has the ability to step in, and question them on it. If a compromise cannot be found, then the issue goes to a vote. In essence, this combines the intent of options 1 and 2.
This makes far more sense than someone having to wait or be limited by those who think they have creative control of everything. That was my major point, a story coordinator shouldn't have creative control of the universe.

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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Archangel » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:38 pm

xfiend1013 wrote:It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission.
I don't know about better, but it's certainly easier. Which I'm okay with, under the circumstances.
Mir wrote:If I'm getting a sense of what X is talking about, explaining it in a more linear rules basis, it's:

Allow people to do what they want, but if something flies in the face of what is established Exodus Canon, the story coordinator has the ability to step in, and question them on it. If a compromise cannot be found, then the issue goes to a vote. In essence, this combines the intent of options 1 and 2.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:45 pm

So since this appears to be an option many are in favor of, I’d like to break down some differences. Oblige me for a moment or two, mainly because I want to make sure the differences here are noted. I refrained from providing any counters as things were being posted previously, to get a feel for how everyone thought.

As things stand currently:

Assume for a moment the current proposal as suggested by Nich were to go into effect.
Let’s take a situation where someone wanted to create the 181st Squadron of Soontir Fel, but sans Fel. They can’t do that, because the proposal states, “Canon worlds, and any ‘Legend’ Canon Worlds, and their Armed Forces, Governments […] cannot be […] ruled/owned by any member of this site.” Now, let’s assume someone wanted to do it anyway. As per the proposal, “…that the MBT does not curve too far out of line with how the new Canon is playing out, we will still use a Story Coordinator[.] The Story Coordinator is here to keep a sense of ‘direction’ and continuity for the MBT.”

The Story Coordinator would have the ability to step in and tell the person they could not do what they wanted to do as per the rules the proposal would make “law”, as well as propose a compromise. If the person refused the compromise and felt slighted in some way, they have the ability to state a claim and, “a Moderator will gather all the information concerning the problem and will take said information, and offer a compromise[,] and/or be the final decision maker of the issue.”

In essence, the Story Coordinator is a resource guide that enables people to plan what they want to do, and see if it would conflict with things that other people are actively doing. For example: Person A is currently writing a story involving the politics of Aquaris, through writing the Senator of Aquaris. Person B, quite separately because they may not read everything else people write, wants to write a story about a total revolution on Aquaris that eventually would be resolved in a status quo way (I’m creating this so that it doesn’t conflict with the overall control section).

Person B’s plan should not go through as planned without the Story Coordinator ensuring Person B is fully aware of Person A’s story, what is transpiring, and what will transpire. Should Person B not want to alter their plan (assuming there’s some conflict with Person A’s story and Person A doesn’t want to compromise either or just because Person B doesn’t want to), then a moderator steps in.

This makes the Story Coordinator a resource guide, and someone who’s main purpose is to stay abreast of the current goings on. Ultimate power and control is held by the Moderators. The Story Coordinator “power” if one would call it that, is continually held in check by the three Moderators and in almost every situation, any issue would be quickly and efficiently resolved.

Let’s now examine what I’ll call Option 3. As posited by Arch and Cadden, and more codified by xFiend.

Assume a scenario, someone wants to introduce a Legends element. Let’s assume for whatever reason, this element would disrupt the Exodus Canon. I know it’s difficult to see how and why this element newly designated as Canon would disrupt Exodus Canon, but bear with me. Now, the Story Coordinator, reading this, says something to this person (Or someone else catches it before the Story Coordinator and brings it to the Coordinator’s attention).

The Story Coordinator says no. This person refuses to accept this and decides to go above the Story Coordinator’s head, calling for a vote. We’ve left Option 2 and now incorporated Option 1, which is the mix that 3 is going for. That vote may take however long it may take, with multiple people voicing multiple opinions. While I doubt any kind of discussion would take as long as this, let’s consider we’re still debating and discussing a reboot first posited on 11 March. It’s been 40 days, and we’ll probably go for a while longer. Even assuming the discussion and vote of this situation takes 10% of the time, that’s 4 days. Which seems minuscule. Until you consider the potential volume.

But what does this do to the Story Coordinator position? They have to be actively reading every post and every wiki. They have to be investigating, being a detective, a police officer, to see what everyone is doing and what’s going on. Because Option 3 doesn’t ask that the person say anything to the Coordinator to begin with. This is far different than being a simple resource guide. In addition, we’ve completely cut out the Moderators, even though the Moderators, as per the original Proposal, are to have a true say as to how the Story Coordinator has acted and on the idea itself.

We trust the Moderators, we’ve done that for nearly 8 years now with no issue. I’m not sure why we need to change that.

Option 2 retains the same wording and design of the current proposal. All Story Coordinator decisions are reviewed by the Moderators if any foul play is perceived. More importantly, all of this is consistent with the notion that the Moderators enforce that ultimate, “Don’t be a Dick” rule. They have the ability to step in and stop people from being a dick, without having votes on the actions of the person. We have it that way, because we trust the Mods.

Why bother to have the other part of the Proposal? Why bother to have the Moderators at all, other than keeping them for the sole purpose of locking threads? We trust them with the overall health and wellbeing of the forum, and under the old MBT, they were the law, with the two Story Coordinators doing the exact same thing that the proposal wants them to do now. We could simply vote on everything for everyone, all the time, under Option 3. Not just for Legend elements, if the person wants to go over the Story Coordinator. For everything, all facets of the board.

We gave the moderators the power they have because there’s an inherent trust factor built into the system, and if they abused the power, they’d be removed. Under the proposal, the Story Coordinator acts as a first line of interaction, to diffuse situations before they go bad. If anything, the Story Coordinator is there to protect you. To protect what you want to do, and help make it fit properly together. That’s the purpose behind the World of Heroes Coordiantor, and when the first WoH Coordinator destroyed and betrayed that trust and behaved in a manner that was designed to control, they were dealt with accordingly.

Now, since there was a recent claim about my chocolate milk being stolen (Strawberry would have been the better choice for that, Squiddles, I’m not that big of a chocolate milk fan), I’ll say this:

I did not ask to be Story Coordinator. As a matter of fact, when Nich spoke to me about his proposal, and said he was suggesting me as Coordinator, I actively asked him not to do it. I did not want the power. This is something that I’ve also told two other members. As a matter of fact when the proposal was brought forward, in my first post, I said (removing the more light hearted banter):

“I’m okay with not being the Story Coordinator. I will say that I’m highly available and I’m willing to talk things through to find a happy medium for everyone to live in. But, if people want a different choice, that’s fine by me.”

There is no grab at creative control. In the off chance the Story Coordinator would try to do that, the Moderators would come down swiftly and neutralize that from happening.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Cazzik » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:22 pm

Well, I've pretty much stayed out of this. Mostly because I didn't want to argue. However, I feel the need to throw in my vote. I like the idea of a Story Coordinator. It works. If things get out of hand then the Mods step in. This also works. It has worked for some time now. I also support Mir being the SC. Very few of us, myself included, have shown the dedication he has to everyone else's threads. He actually cares about it. For the most part, he is pretty impartial. He's still human and of course has a few mistakes under his belt. We all do. However, I believe he has less mistakes than the majority of us.

And I can vouch that he actually didn't want the position. We've spoken about it a couple times over the last few days.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Cadden » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:37 pm

So there's a disconnect somewhere, here, I think. What I'm suggesting is, simply, if it's a minor Legends element, like a piece of equipment being used that's so far been exclusive to Legends continuity, there shouldn't be any reason to get approval for it. Or if it's a minor Legends world/location you want to put into canon, like, say, Udine (because why not, and I'm too lazy to pull a truly random example, and no, I'm not alluding to anything, either), there shouldn't be any reason to ask for permission or whatever.

I'm not saying completely restructure this proposal. Everyone knows my feelings on voting for everything. I'm just saying that we shouldn't have to get permission for everything from Legends. It's a huge galaxy (supposedly), who's to say that, somewhere, that E-15A blaster rifle doesn't exist? (Again, too lazy to pull a truly random example.) But the galaxy isn't so big you can't tell me that it could work in an E-Wing and the New Republic somehow not use it, something that would require said approval.

And if I'm not helping explain any better, it's just a simple sign I should have gone to bed two hours ago. :oldrazz:
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by xfiend1013 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:54 pm

Mir wrote:
But what does this do to the Story Coordinator position? They have to be actively reading every post and every wiki. They have to be investigating, being a detective, a police officer, to see what everyone is doing and what’s going on. Because Option 3 doesn’t ask that the person say anything to the Coordinator to begin with. This is far different than being a simple resource guide. In addition, we’ve completely cut out the Moderators, even though the Moderators, as per the original Proposal, are to have a true say as to how the Story Coordinator has acted and on the idea itself.
This is what I get for "assuming," but I was assuming that the SC would only step in if people complained. Like, if I was doing something on Planet X that nobody heard of, and it wasn't weird or troublesome, but it was noncanonical, and nobody really cared, then, obviously, nobody's stepping in. But if a mod or member came to the SC and said "hey, what's up with X's 'kill all humans' storyline?" then we'd go to step 1, "SC and X have it out in private."

Honestly, I don't know what the mods do as far as story stuff goes. I thought they just did all the important work of spam-hammering, ban-hammering, and moving things around. They can join the SC in being our LucasArts style "Keepers of the Holocron" as far as I'm concerned. That's probably even BETTER, as it takes the burden off one guy.
Cadden wrote:...simply, if it's a minor Legends element, like a piece of equipment being used that's so far been exclusive to Legends continuity, there shouldn't be any reason to get approval for it. Or if it's a minor Legends world/location you want to put into canon, like, say, Udine (because why not, and I'm too lazy to pull a truly random example, and no, I'm not alluding to anything, either), there shouldn't be any reason to ask for permission or whatever.

I'm not saying completely restructure this proposal. Everyone knows my feelings on voting for everything. I'm just saying that we shouldn't have to get permission for everything from Legends. It's a huge galaxy (supposedly), who's to say that, somewhere, that E-15A blaster rifle doesn't exist?
Exactly! By using the Werner Herzog tested principle of "ask for forgiveness, not permission," we take the burden off the posters who aren't screwing up the universe, and have a simple way to handle those who are: When they receive a complaint (or if they're just being nosy or reading or whatever), the mods/SC team step in and speak with the offender, and if they/he can't come to a satisfactory conclusion, we put it to a vote, and go with the results.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Jagtai » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:57 pm

I am in agreement with everything X said.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Pryde » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:40 pm

It was--easier with faction coordinators. All we had to do was say if you wanted to do something with a particular faction you should consult the FC first. I can't really expect us to have a clause that says every story has to go through Mir and I certainly wouldn't expect him to be reading every single thread and every single wiki of every single character. I mean, no one has that kind of time. I've always pictured the position of being the guy who steps in if there's a complaint. Or the guy you can go to if you're unsure about something. I've never pictured him as the guy you have to go through for everything but then maybe I haven't been very clear on that point.

In short, story proposals can be brought up to the story coordinator and if you plan to do something major it probably should. If you don't that's fine most of us here are a reasonable sort, but if someone does complain then that complaint should be brought to the SC first (if it's about a story or a particular character, that is. If it's about a member then talk to the mods). If the problem cannot be resolved amicably between the SC and the parties involved then the mods can come in and help resolve the issue (edit: or a vote, or whatever).

... I guess it wasn't really that short, huh? The shorter version? I agree with X.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:24 am

xfiend1013 wrote: This is what I get for "assuming," but I was assuming that the SC would only step in if people complained. Like, if I was doing something on Planet X that nobody heard of, and it wasn't weird or troublesome, but it was noncanonical, and nobody really cared, then, obviously, nobody's stepping in. But if a mod or member came to the SC and said "hey, what's up with X's 'kill all humans' storyline?" then we'd go to step 1, "SC and X have it out in private."

Honestly, I don't know what the mods do as far as story stuff goes. I thought they just did all the important work of spam-hammering, ban-hammering, and moving things around. They can join the SC in being our LucasArts style "Keepers of the Holocron" as far as I'm concerned. That's probably even BETTER, as it takes the burden off one guy.
The mods only weigh in if there's a complaint. There's no active engagement when it comes to finding compromises for people until a complaint has already happened. The SC does that, under the old MBT and under the proposal, because the SC is finding out things before it happens and can try to find solutions to issues that may arise with what people are trying to do. What you're talking about is being reactionary. Basically now a SC is a Mod without administrative abilities and warning abilities. We already have 3 Mods creating the ability to have a majority. There's no need for a SC, make the Mods do all of it.
Pryde2000 wrote:In short, story proposals can be brought up to the story coordinator and if you plan to do something major it probably should. If you don't that's fine most of us here are a reasonable sort[.]
So now for the major stuff, you're suggesting people don't even have to talk to the Story Coordinator about that? That's never even been in contention. :raisedbrow:
Last edited by Mir on Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:31 am

I'd also like to add that Tal's post in the New Canon Galaxy thread sums up something I've been saying at various points this entire reboot discussion since 11 Mar. If everyone is able to add all the Legends stuff they want, whenever they want to, and we only deal with it after someone complains (which creates the obvious affirmative defense of: I've already been doing it x amount of time, just let it be), what, really is the point of rebooting to a TFA focused timeline? If we're going to allow people to cherry pick Legends elements, why bother with the argument and just include all Legends elements and stories from the start of the galaxy to the Battle of Endor and then just pick up with Disney canon then, allowing for all Legends things to trump Disney, if Disney says they don't exist?

Because really all that we're changing is: Current State (to include political, economic, social factors) of the NR and Current State (to include political economic social factors) of the Empire/First Order. Even that, really we're changing because if #Balmorra happens, it would probably be an NR world and would affect the current state of the NR.

Everything else can be changed at the whim of anyone.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Cadden » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:07 am

The problem I'm having with strict 100% adherence to Disney canon is how small it feels. Because of how little they have established, it doesn't feel like the galaxy-spanning, rich with lore, Star Wars we've all grown up with. This is the only issue I specifically have with strict 100% adherence, and why I'm okay with incorporating elements of EU into a Disney canon continuity. (Which, personal feelings about making assumptions here aside, I personally believe all we'd be doing is beating them to the punchline with doing that.)
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Archangel » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:33 am

TL;DR: I like Option 3, but Option 2 is more practical. Rebooting is about the fresh start and making our canon marketable.

My "reasonableness" guide relies on people knowing when to ask the Story Coordinator/moderators for a decision. Small stuff--basic equipment, unimportant worlds, starship varieties--can be included without delay, because they don't have an impact on the canon (other than to say, "Hey! This stuff exists!"). Big stuff--sentences like, "And Joe Jedi went back to the very first Jedi Temple on Tython, where he found seven holocrons and learned the ways of the Force," or, "Isaac Imperial stood up and graciously accepted his new rank insignia: Captain of the Punisher, poised to kill Resistance scum throughout the galaxy, with a license to go freelance so it didn't seem like the First Order was evil yet," or, "She had found it. Sally Sensitive had finally found it: the darksaber. With it, she could unite the Mandalorians and probably the Jedi, too, and take the fight to the First Order," are all the kind of things that a reasonable person would make sure is okay.

Because they're pretty much not okay.

Gray areas are also sticking points. If we're saying, "Owning a Star Destroyer is too much," people should ask, "What about a Strike cruiser?" to which the Story Coordinator, steeped in canon lore, will reply, "What's a Strike cruiser?"

I don't think the onus should be on the Story Coordinator to track down violators and stop them. Which means it's on the rest of us to "report" violators earlier rather than later. When a compromise cannot be found, I would have no problem if the issue went to the moderators (per the standing proposal), but they have two choices at that point. The first is to say unequivocally, "Stop this or you get a warning!" which is not at all conducive to a creative atmosphere. The thought that we're all just one string of GMish posts (the definition of which we have no control over) away from official warnings is a little unsettling. The second is to say, "Let's put it to a vote among the community." Maybe they allow the presentation of primary points once from the violator and the SC, and then no more discussion, or maybe they allow everyone to get up in arms over every little thing, I dunno.

So under my Reasonableness Guide, is there a significant difference between going to the moderators and going to a vote? I mean, people will probably accept reprimand a little better from everyone than from authority figures. And if everyone votes against the SC/moderators, maybe a rule change (or a change of principles, anyway) is in order.

At the same time, I do think the Reasonableness Guide allows (for better or for worse) that people have powerful things so long as they don't use them powerfully. For instance, in the thread I'm working on, I kind of want to have a First Order ship show up at a planet, and it's not going to blow up the planet or even bombard the planet, but it's going to have some characters that investigate the planet and then some hijinks ensue with the characters. The ship will eventually leave and go back to doing whatever it is that First Order ships do. I will control the captain and the ship while it's in my thread, but I won't "own" them; they'll be lightly used NPCs. Under my Reasonableness Guide, I'd probably ask the SC for permission to use a larger vessel for that, because in this context, it seems appropriate, but even if I'm just using a Carrack (it's canon; I checked), which has enough firepower to be too large to "own," I don't think I'd need permission for that. Because using that firepower isn't part of the story. It's the logical conveyance, not an effort to impose my will.

The major downside of the Reasonableness Guide that I see is the complete lack of scalability. Assuming that everyone is reasonable will work just fine for the tiny community we have, but if we start getting new people--especially if we somehow get a lot of them--then reasonableness can no longer be assumed, not because random strangers on the internet aren't reasonable, but just because we don't know that they are. And sooner or later, someone would take advantage of that system.

Which is why I also support Option 2. Because, as annoying as it might be to ask for permission once or twice per post (on average), that's a simple rule that makes sense and is easily scalable.

Re: "Why reboot, anyhow?"
For me, it's:
  1. To clear away the cobwebs of the Exodus Canon. There's so much stuff lingering around here that was built by people who haven't posted in years. Halcyon's last MBT post was more than 3 years ago. Halomek's was over a year ago. Tabetha's was 3.5 years ago. Darkheyr's was 2 years ago. Croft's was almost 6 years ago. Beorht's was 3 years ago. SmokeMare's was almost 4 years ago. Hell, mine was 9 months ago. And yet all of these people have had profound impacts on the Exodus Canon. To me, it's the exact opposite of Disney's canon--where Disney feels empty, Exodus feels cluttered. It's not the main thing that's kept me from posting more, but it was one tiny reason.
  2. To clear away the cobwebs of the EU. Nobody takes Splinter of the Mind's Eye or the Jedi Prince series as canon, not seriously. But there are so many stories in the EU that are so far out there (I'm thinking of Abeloth, for example) that keeping even part of them makes very little sense. I am also firmly of the opinion that the setting does not need to change drastically in order to change the history drastically. We can still run around Tyrena of Corellia without including Centerpoint Station in our canon.
  3. To bring our main board timeline into a marketable state that connects with the part of canon that is currently most vibrant.

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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:54 am

Arch has hit my dilemma on the head. My feeling is rather than allow everything and then having to have others reporting, is to just have things be asked of the Story Coordinator position. I know, at least while I am SC if my filling the spot is good with everyone else, I'm so readily accessible through multiple means that the amount of downtime from query to answer is minimal.

Also, this aids in my ability to help overall, especially with the larger story issues, because I'll know at the moment I'm asked, what the current state of the galaxy is and what the current state of Exodus Canon is.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Jagtai » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:28 am

I understand your points, but I'd resent having to ask permission for every little non-canon thing. If I want to be chased by a Star Destroyer, go to Nar Shaddaa and Balmorra and meet interesting people, etc, WHY would I need to get permission from the SC? It has absolutely no impact on the galaxy. I'd just end up resenting the SC.

Sure, if I intend for my character to acquire a Star Destroyer and use it for illicit activities with no effect on the galaxy, I understand why I'd need to clear it with the SC (a SD is a powerful tool).

I think my point is this: Is there some lower limit, or do I seriously need permission for everything?
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Nichalus » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:04 am

Personally Jag, having a single SD for story purposes shouldn't be something that you need to speak with the SC about.

Having a SD with the Darksaber attached underneath it would most likely be something to mention to the SC first.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Nichalus » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:08 am

My same thoughts apply to Arch's example of using a large class FO ship under the example for what he was going to use it for.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Cadden » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:40 am

Jagtai wrote:I'd just end up resenting the SC.
But, Jag, you already resent Mir. :oldrazz:
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:48 am

Mir also doesn't care if Jag resents him.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Jagtai » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:58 am

I don't resent Mir. I find him incredibly annoying at times, but I don't resent him.
Mir wrote:Mir also doesn't care if Jag resents him.
Yeah, he does. He'll claim not to care, but he does.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Mir » Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:17 am

Yeah....no.......Mir no care.
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Cadden » Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:23 am

Jagtai wrote:I don't resent Mir. I find him incredibly annoying at times, but I don't resent him.
Your post on our Facebook page back in July determines that is a lie. ;)
You're certainly the person from the boards I most love to hate :P
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Red Dragon » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:11 am

xfiend1013 wrote:I'm with Arch and Cadden here. I'm sure they both just winced.

Thing is: Adding very Star-Wars things is going to happen, and I don't think most of us want to wait on someone to come in and tell us "yes, that non-canon shipyard DID produce a variant Firespray 20 years ago and it WOULD be available!"

It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. If someone's running around with Gundams and a Jedi that's just like Spiderman, then we bother THEM, not the people doing things the right way.

In that case (as in, someone reads your thread and goes 'whoa, time travel?") it should be A: Handled by a coordinator, and B: If the coordinator can't handle it, a vote.

X OUT.

Hey i though i fit the gundams in pretty well...
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Jagtai » Fri Apr 22, 2016 12:51 pm

Cadden wrote:
Jagtai wrote:I don't resent Mir. I find him incredibly annoying at times, but I don't resent him.
Your post on our Facebook page back in July determines that is a lie. ;)
You're certainly the person from the boards I most love to hate :P
Also, you're welcome
That was said in jest. I don't resent anyone on the boards. I may want to smack you lot around some times, but that's not because I don't like you - that's just my Viking temper speaking. :lightsaber:

And I don't see you moving the thread back on track :raisedbrow: :P
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Re: Reboot: Determining Our Canon

Post by Cadden » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:27 pm

Yes, Jaggles, I'm aware of that being said in jest. All that booze has deteriorated your judgment and common sense.

... Wait.... :oldrazz:
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