Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

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Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Nichalus » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:55 am

Ok, I'm sure this will be a 'interesting' discussion.

This discussion will be STRICTLY about how the community wants to treat the Jedi/Force Users in the reboot of the MBT.

I have my own opinion on the subject, which I'll share at a later time, but I will be reading everyone's various thoughts on their opinions, so I might be swayed depending on everyone's thoughts.

Remember this is a 'discussion', not a debate to force individual thoughts on everyone else who doesn't agree with them.

I expect this to be a heated discussion, and you all know I don't mind a bit of 'heat', but outright disrespectful flaming will not be tolerated, warnings will be issued and posts deleted for any obvious ones.

Remember "Don't be a Dick" rules.

We'll take 2 weeks to discuss this, then we will winnow down the popular views and then put them to a vote.

The 'Senile' Mod is watching...be nice. *smirk*
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Red Dragon » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:09 pm

I don't know about Rey and how she just suddenly could use force abilities out of thin air, at least so many of them in such a short amount of time with little to no practice or self discovery...

But i feel that if someone is force sensitive and are aware of it, ( they know they have a power, if they know it as the force or not can be up to the RPer.) then they can more or less self teach themselves and possibly others. Through time, practice and self discovery and maybe even with a push from the force its self they can be proficient force users. This DOESN'T make them Jedi or Sith, though some may try to claim they are to look awesome or whatever ( likely getting them selves killed). Being a Jedi or Sith is a belief system, they follow an order and the rules it places on them, more or less.

Force users in this new MBT would simply be that, force users. Self taught or part of some cult or group that has other force users. In the legends EU there were all sorts of force using factions, though it made little sense they existed because wouldn't have old palpy want them murdered off too? While that may still hold true in this reboot we have 18 years without palpy and his bull. So maybe, even though they may be young, there may be a number of new force using organizations popping up. They may not know its the force they are using, may call it something completely different... who knows/cares... The point i guess I'm trying to make is its an open book for all kinds of writing, we shouldn't be limited to just Jedi and Sith or even care if they exist. Luke is the last Jedi and for the moment in disney's new lore there is no Sith, ( i think, correct me if i wrong and snork is a Sith) So until they have it that luke yet again tries to set up a academy i say the Jedi are dead. Even if there are "other Jedi" maybe they don't consider themselves as such anymore, because the Jedi was an order, not a person...
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Jagtai » Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:55 pm

I agree with Red Dragon; while Jedi/Sith may not exist, Force Users certainly would. I highly doubt that the number of potential Force Users being born is diminished with time.

Nor do I see a problem with a number of Force Users coming together and founding the New Sith Order or whatever, as long as it is done IC over time. They may not be true Sith, but I doubt that every Sith artifact and holocron has been found/destroyed.

Besides, just because ten people claim to be Sith, doesn't mean that anyone else will take them seriously.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Pryde » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:27 pm

Jagtai wrote:Besides, just because ten people claim to be Sith, doesn't mean that anyone else will take them seriously.
I wouldn't be 100% positive on that last part. The more skeptical denizens of the galaxy might not take them seriously but people can be surprisingly ignorant at times. I'd say there are enough myths of Jedi and Sith around that some people will probably see a Force user (or someone who at least appears to have a special power) and probably consider them to be Jedi. You land on a backwater planet, brandish a red lightsaber and call yourself Sith you might find someone who will believe you.

Anyway, being a Force user of any kind or even just Force sensitive in this new timeline is risky business. It's stated on the First Order's wiki that they hunted down Jedi and anyone with any Force potential. So if you're strong in the Force, even if you aren't trained, you might be targeted by the First Order. It also means any potential Force using communities out there will have probably been vastly diminished... Well, at least those the Empire knows about. The galaxy is a big place, after all, there could be pockets of star systems out there that are unexplored and who knows what we'll find there.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Mir » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:29 am

Thus far, I agree with everything Red has said. Red For Prezzie.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Shaggy » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:36 pm

I believe there is an article out there from J.J saying Kylo Ren is not a Sith. Snoke might not be one either. They just might be darkside users. Someone will need to confirm that.

Now Luke is stated to be the last Jedi, ok, but there are other Force users. Maz for instance is a Force user. There is a deleted scene where she brings down that underground hall on a bunch of stormtroopers. Even she said that she was no Jedi but she knows the Force. We also know that she wasn't hunted down. Solo said that she had run this watering hole of almost a thousand years. So we can't count out those who know about the Force. Some of these cultures and people who the Force has been a part of their society, would be difficult to wipe out.

For those who are just now discovering their powers like Rey, it would be a sort of being considered "gifted". Maybe some children could have even been considered holy men/women witches or mystics in their communities. All these people would just be that, people. Unless someone came aong and told them why they could do special things, they would just continue on seeing themselves as "gifted"
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Pryde » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:19 pm

Not really counting them out just saying in the grand scheme of things Force sensitives are rare and getting rarer. Maz Kanata brings up a good point, though, something that reminded me of an interview I read about with Dave Filoni, the producer of Star Wars Rebels;
“Yoda says, ‘When gone I am, the last of the Jedi will you be.’ ‘Of the Jedi’ could be a group of Jedi. You don’t know… That’s not to say I believe there are a lot of Jedi running around by Return of the Jedi. I think there are Force-wielding people, but whether they subscribe to the Jedi philosophy of how you use the Force is another question… But fans deal in absolutes, like Sith.” “She does say ‘I am no Jedi,’ very clearly,” Filoni explained. “So if she says that and Yoda later says ‘When gone am I, the last of the Jedi will you be,’ he’s definitely not talking about her. There were so many options of lines to give in this episode, and one of them along the way of the season was that Ahsoka would mention that Yoda wouldn’t think of her as a Jedi because she’s not, necessarily, practicing that path any more. She’s still in the Light Side, for sure, but she’s not a Jedi practitioner per se.”
So even the people working at Disney believe there is room for interpretation. A character could be Jedi trained but no longer identifying as Jedi. That would still fall in line with the current canon, I think. I just hope we don't abuse this to the point where it becomes cliche.

A group of nobodies training themselves and then forming their own version of the Jedi Order is a much more interesting prospect to me than a bunch of old veterans coming back and rebuilding the same old order we've seen time and time again. I had in my mind a vision of a group of, let's call them "Jedi", who operate discreetly, dropping in to help people and fight the First Order but leaving no trace. I figure with the First Order hunting Force sensitives and the New Republic desperately trying to avoid war that any organization calling itself "Jedi" is not going to have the full support of the Senate or the Republic. Basically, they'd be isolated and alone and a prime target for the First Order, hence the need for secrecy.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Shaggy » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:07 pm

Almost like the secret avengers. They are not public and they are supposed to be in the shadows at all times. They appear help someone out and then gone again. they have to get out before the First Order hears about them. "Undercover superheroes" oh I like that a ton
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Nichalus » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:18 pm

Shaggy wrote:Almost like the secret avengers. They are not public and they are supposed to be in the shadows at all times. They appear help someone out and then gone again. they have to get out before the First Order hears about them. "Undercover superheroes" oh I like that a ton

Sounds like the A-Team
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Shaggy » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:33 pm

Where is my dang like button Jag!!!!!!

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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Mir » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:19 pm

Mir wrote:Green Squadron is a group of former Rebel Alliance pilots/fighters who, after the victory at Endor became part of the New Republic. But after a while, they realized that the NR is focused on the big picture now, of governing and that there are still pockets of Imperials who still rule systems and sectors and that someone has to look out for the little guy.

Green Squadron has become the A-Team of the galaxy.

Stop.

Stealing.

Mir's.

Genius.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Vox » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:51 pm

Playing devil's advocate with the whole Yoda thing:

How do we know that there's an in between? Remember, the EU we know doesn't exist anymore. When Yoda says, "the last of the Jedi you will be" he could literally mean that there are no more Force users. Lucas (I'll have to find the exact source) has stated that the only Force users in the galaxy are Jedi and Sith, including Dark Jedi in that as well. If that is the truth then Luke is it. Period. Leia has the talent for the Force but we don't see her wearing any Jedi stuff come TFA. Yoda knows about Leia, even states she's his sister but Luke is it. That's all there is.

Taking a statement and turning it into an ambiguous statement, ignoring the fact that Yoda makes an absolute statement, seems sloppy to me.

Those that make the argument of "well there are others" ignore the fact that you may be looking at that statement with the EU being present in your mind. There is no ambiguity to Yoda at all, in anything he says throughout our known history about him.

My two cents on being a devil's advocate here.

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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Nichalus » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:19 pm

Vox wrote:Playing devil's advocate with the whole Yoda thing:

How do we know that there's an in between? Remember, the EU we know doesn't exist anymore. When Yoda says, "the last of the Jedi you will be" he could literally mean that there are no more Force users. Lucas (I'll have to find the exact source) has stated that the only Force users in the galaxy are Jedi and Sith, including Dark Jedi in that as well. If that is the truth then Luke is it. Period. Leia has the talent for the Force but we don't see her wearing any Jedi stuff come TFA. Yoda knows about Leia, even states she's his sister but Luke is it. That's all there is.

Taking a statement and turning it into an ambiguous statement, ignoring the fact that Yoda makes an absolute statement, seems sloppy to me.

Those that make the argument of "well there are others" ignore the fact that you may be looking at that statement with the EU being present in your mind. There is no ambiguity to Yoda at all, in anything he says throughout our known history about him.

My two cents on being a devil's advocate here.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by VagueDurin » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:43 pm

Mir wrote:
Mir wrote:Green Squadron is a group of former Rebel Alliance pilots/fighters who, after the victory at Endor became part of the New Republic. But after a while, they realized that the NR is focused on the big picture now, of governing and that there are still pockets of Imperials who still rule systems and sectors and that someone has to look out for the little guy.

Green Squadron has become the A-Team of the galaxy.

Stop.

Stealing.

Mir's.

Genius.

There can be only one Green Squadron. They are the best Team. The Green Team.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Starlight » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:58 pm

*raises hand for force-user sneaky team*
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Pryde » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:50 pm

Vox wrote:Playing devil's advocate with the whole Yoda thing:

How do we know that there's an in between? Remember, the EU we know doesn't exist anymore. When Yoda says, "the last of the Jedi you will be" he could literally mean that there are no more Force users. Lucas (I'll have to find the exact source) has stated that the only Force users in the galaxy are Jedi and Sith, including Dark Jedi in that as well. If that is the truth then Luke is it. Period. Leia has the talent for the Force but we don't see her wearing any Jedi stuff come TFA. Yoda knows about Leia, even states she's his sister but Luke is it. That's all there is.

Taking a statement and turning it into an ambiguous statement, ignoring the fact that Yoda makes an absolute statement, seems sloppy to me.

Those that make the argument of "well there are others" ignore the fact that you may be looking at that statement with the EU being present in your mind. There is no ambiguity to Yoda at all, in anything he says throughout our known history about him.

My two cents on being a devil's advocate here.
Star Wars Rebels is canon and that was one of the show's producers suggesting there might be some ambiguity. That's as credible as it gets.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Pryde » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:58 pm

Sadly, on the Force user sneaky team front it would be something we'd have to work up to and no I didn't steal it from Mir's genius... At least not intentionally. The need for a secret organization of Force users was born out of necessity. Considering everything I know about the current canon it seemed to me like the most logical outcome. The Jedi won't openly declare themselves as Jedi unless they have the backing of a government otherwise they're just painting themselves as a target for the First Order. At least that was my thought process... >.>
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by TalRaimi » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:22 am

Lucas (I'll have to find the exact source) has stated that the only Force users in the galaxy are Jedi and Sith
Yeah... I find it hard to pay what Lucas says any mind nowadays. This is a man who rewrote his own canon as and when he felt like it. And in the movies it certainly doesn't say 100% that only Jedi and Sith have the Force.

But nevertheless, good avocating. :)

My take is that being a Jedi is a philosophy, a way of life. TFA clearly states Luke is the last Jedi, but Rey is clearly a powerful Force User by the end of the film and you wouln't call her a Jedi would you?
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Vox » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:55 am

Nichalus wrote:
Vox wrote:Playing devil's advocate with the whole Yoda thing:

How do we know that there's an in between? Remember, the EU we know doesn't exist anymore. When Yoda says, "the last of the Jedi you will be" he could literally mean that there are no more Force users. Lucas (I'll have to find the exact source) has stated that the only Force users in the galaxy are Jedi and Sith, including Dark Jedi in that as well. If that is the truth then Luke is it. Period. Leia has the talent for the Force but we don't see her wearing any Jedi stuff come TFA. Yoda knows about Leia, even states she's his sister but Luke is it. That's all there is.

Taking a statement and turning it into an ambiguous statement, ignoring the fact that Yoda makes an absolute statement, seems sloppy to me.

Those that make the argument of "well there are others" ignore the fact that you may be looking at that statement with the EU being present in your mind. There is no ambiguity to Yoda at all, in anything he says throughout our known history about him.

My two cents on being a devil's advocate here.
So, this isn't 'your' opinion on the matter?
I'm in favor of having Force users if that's what you're asking.

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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Mir » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:47 am

Vox wrote:I'm in favor of having Force users if that's what you're asking.
What, then, are the parameters regarding Force users that are in your favor?

Pryde, you totes stole my idea. I invoke Batchall.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Nichalus » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:25 am

Listen folks. We don't need discussion based on 'devil's advocate' or what ifs. This discussion is about what 'you' as the members of this community feel we should do with the Jedi/Force Users for the reboot of the MBT, given what we know so far...which is damn little, but we can extrapolate 'some' things.

I tell Mir all the time to stop over-thinking things, because this doesn't lead to discussion that will lead to a solution. Over-thinking things has a tendency of using a stick of dynamite on a anthill, when a simple agreement of basics is all we need.

If a member has already posted something that you agree with in theory', there is nothing wrong with saying "Hey, that's just about what I think, so that member already summed up my thoughts."

With that said, I agree with Red, with elements of the 'Secret Jedi' Order, or Cult of Users of Mysterious Powers that do not call themselves Jedi.

Personally speaking the Jedi are arguably one of the most powerful draws to the Star Wars Universe, I mean look at the legions of Jedi Fan Clubs and groups out there. It would be complete a utter folly for Disney to lessen their role in the new Canon in the long run. I think we will learn as the new movies and books progress that there are 'alot' more Force Users AND Jedi out there then what it seems at this time.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Mir » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:45 am

Nichalus wrote: I tell Mir all the time to stop over-thinking things, because this doesn't lead to discussion that will lead to a solution. Over-thinking things has a tendency of using a stick of dynamite on a anthill, when a simple agreement of basics is all we need.
It's true. He tells me this maybe once every two weeks. Sometimes it's more. I mean, when I think about it, it's probably more than once every two weeks, definitely. There's insinuation and inflection that you can read into other things that he says that would lead me to believe, however credible the evidence appears to be, that he probably does tell me this more than once every two weeks. I'd realistically peg it more along the lines of twice every two weeks, but not necessarily once a week, you know?

I guess it all depends on what volume of conversation is, the topic of conversation, even the time the conversation is taking place. These are all important factors that one has to consider when one thinks about how many times Nich tells me not to over think things. Honestly, it's more of a guideline, a mantra, you could say, that he's tried to instill in me over the years, so in a sense, you could theorize that he tells it to me everyday.

But that brings up the question of whether this is actual instruction/tutelage, done with intent on the part of Nich, the one giving the instruction. Your parents taught you certain things when you were growing up as a child, and you don't say that your parents tell you everyday to make your bed, right? That's just something you do. Another thing to consider is, if we are going to include a mantra drilled into my head as Nich telling me this, what value does it have in comparison to the active times when it is he himself reminding me, and not some residual afterglow of the conversations we've had in the past?

Is it a 1-1 ratio?

I don't know if that seems right. After all, when it is happening live, so to speak, he is clearly putting forth the effort right then and there, whereas in the other cases, it's more like a tree that Nich planted some time ago that continually bears fruit. But in summation, it is definitive that Nich tells me at least once every two weeks, not to over think things.

I think.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Nichalus » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:52 am

I rest my case
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Cadden » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:28 am

Jedi - No. Yoda was clear in RotJ, and TFA made it black and white after Luke's attempt to reestablish the Jedi. Luke is the last of the Jedi. Period.

Force-sensitives - Yes. It's unrealistic that they could have been "completely wiped out" by Snoke and the Knights of Ren. Case in point is with Maz, Rey, and, arguably, Finn. Leia, as well, and Kylo/Ben and Snoke both knew she is Force-sensitive.

Secret Jedi - No. Any Force-sensitive that knows they are Force-sensitive should be keeping that to themselves, period. They should be concerned, even afraid, for their survival. Next to Luke and Snoke, the dozen-ish Knights of Ren are the most powerful Force users in the galaxy. Maybe a Force-sensitive every here and there, but not a group of them.

New Jedi/New Sith - No. Not anytime soon, anyway. Luke is the last of the Jedi, and despite fan theories we don't know who Snoke is, if anyone in particular, so until we're told otherwise the Sith are extinct. Regardless, we've only got a small handful of trained Force users in existence by TFA. It took Luke, what, five years to be considered by Yoda and Obi-Wan a Jedi knight? And that was only after he defeated a fully trained Sith Lord. Any characters who want to claim to be either should have a very long road ahead of them, and not be able to do so until at least a good year-plus after the events of TFA. I like the idea of it being a rare thing, nowadays. My concern here is, once people start up with that, we'll just be repeating the current MBT and Jedi/dark Jedi/Sith will start coming out of the woodwork.

I do like the idea of Force-sensitives being considered something akin to "mystics" in their local regions, but again, their abilities should be considered very limited, and the number of characters like that should be considered few and far between, imho.

I think that's about it for now from me.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Pryde » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:58 am

Pretty sure J.J. has gone on record saying that neither Snoke nor Ren are Sith. In everything I've read that's the strongest argument against Snoke being Plagueis is that he's not actually Sith. In fact, I think the book implies that his interest in Ben is because he has potential for both light and dark in him although in the movie he only seems to be interested in the dark so I don't know.

In short, there are no Sith either but there are still Sith artifacts. So in theory one could train themselves to be Sith given time. I'm hesitant to say that person should wait until a year after TFA, though. If we are in fact starting 10 years before TFA then we're looking at 11 years plus before people can start calling themselves Jedi or Sith. At the rate we change the year around here that basically amounts to "never happening at all ever."

Unless we start changing the year with more regularity that's about the only part of Cadden's argument I disagree with.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Mir » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:06 pm

Pryde2000 wrote:Unless we start changing the year with more regularity[...].
We should probably talk about this. Mir supports more regularity. Among other things, it would help Nich with...stuff.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Nichalus » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:07 pm

In case anyone missed my post on the vote thread, that vote is null and void, due to the unusual number of votes. We will vote again on the timeline after we set up a 'registered' voter forum as we have done in the past, where voters will need to be 'active' members of this community. But detail on that will come at a later time, after we hash out some other details.

Carry on with the Jedi/Force User discussion for now please.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Red Dragon » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:33 pm

Cadden wrote:Secret Jedi - No. Any Force-sensitive that knows they are Force-sensitive should be keeping that to themselves, period. They should be concerned, even afraid, for their survival.


But fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering...

One big thing we need to remember is the FO isn't consitered a threat by the galaxy at large. Force sensitives/users, again if they even know its the force let alone call it that, know nothing about the FO and that they are presumably after them. It not like its broadcasted around the galaxy that the FO is after your force users, better run and hide. And its marked for only force users you listen to this message.

"Hey bob... i heard about this little girl that floated shit on her world, a few systems to the left. FO hunted her down like a dog and ate her. But its ok the FO isn't a threat to anyone! But just to be sure better tell your boy, the one that talks to the animals, about the FO and to fear them for the rest of his short life."

^^ Dose that make sense in anyway or form? because the way some of you make it out, that's exactly what it sounds like. Only those Force users the Snork's FO found would maybe know that they are fucked. There is also the whole thing where the FO is small in number AND trying to hide what forces it does have so the the NR doesn't go, "Well shit they are a threat! GET EM!". So the FO can't just go around the NR killing people that show the slightest hint of force use or even be able to get them where ever when ever they want. This again isn't the galaxy spanning Galactic Empire with a massive military force and a whole slew of half ass half trained darksiders.

Now then you might say that the Knights of Ren can just sneak around to do these dirty deeds. Well why can they do that and not our stalwart Jedi wannabes? Whats with the double standard here?

Now you all been talknig about what Yoda said, that when he was gone Luke is the last of the Jedi... Remember when obi wan was a dick and told luke that Vader killed his father, that whole "from a certain point of view" bull shit? Jedi seem to like using that sort of bull shit a lot. Just tossing that out there.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by VagueDurin » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:33 pm

Mir wrote:
Pryde2000 wrote:Unless we start changing the year with more regularity[...].
We should probably talk about this. Mir supports more regularity. Among other things, it would help Nich with...stuff.

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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Red Dragon » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:34 pm

VagueDurin wrote:
Mir wrote:
Pryde2000 wrote:Unless we start changing the year with more regularity[...].
We should probably talk about this. Mir supports more regularity. Among other things, it would help Nich with...stuff.

Fiber...
LOL
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Shaggy » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:47 pm

Red Dragon wrote:Now then you might say that the Knights of Ren can just sneak around to do these dirty deeds. Well why can they do that and not our stalwart Jedi wannabes? Whats with the double standard here?
This^^^^^

It can be done, but not everyone will have a force user. A small team like the Knights of Ren but the good guys. the A-Team is a perfect example. There was 4 of them and there are 6 KoR I believe. Completely doable
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Cadden » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:49 pm

Pryde2000 wrote:Pretty sure J.J. has gone on record saying that neither Snoke nor Ren are Sith. In everything I've read that's the strongest argument against Snoke being Plagueis is that he's not actually Sith.
He also went on record to state that Kahn wasn't in Star Trek Into Darkness....

My 1+ year statement was going off the previous notion of being 5 years prior to TFA. Hence why I piggy backed it off the 5 years or so it took Luke. The idea is more in the time than in the setting, though I'm not entirely for having Jedi and Sith running around the place in a time period now established that there are neither, even if we decide to ignore most points in TFA.

Red, if I remember correctly, the FO is, actually, recognized as a legitimate power in the galaxy, and the NR didn't just go and consume the GE and Galactic Republic before that. The NR, by TFA, was still in a fairly young state and still trying to gain the trust of the galaxy.

And Yoda has never demonstrated a character trait of withholding information in the same way Obi-Wan did. He didn't tell Luke he was Yoda at first because he needed to evaluate him. He didn't tell Luke Vader was his father because he didn't want his personal feelings to lead him into a bad spot. He knows there's a time for sharing certain information, and that being 100% upfront from the get-go isn't always a good idea. Luke needed training, first, before he was ready to learn Vader was his dad and Leia was his sister. Otherwise, he could have very well fallen to the dark side. So when he tells Luke straight up that he's the last of the Jedi, I'm inclined to believe him. Why? Because it doesn't make sense to me that Yoda would tell Luke it's all on him if he knew there were others just as capable, if not moreso, out there that could have at least assisted him in the final hour. And, we know from RotS, Yoda has a deeper, more personal connection through the Force to others, evidenced by how he reacted when Order 66 was issued. So, if he says Luke is the last, I'm going to believe Luke is the last, especially after TFA goes on top state that Luke was training a new generation of Jedi when Ben threw a temper tantrum and ruined it for everyone.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Mir » Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:55 pm

I don't know about the fairly young and still trying to gain the trust of the galaxy thing for the NR.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Red Dragon » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:29 pm

You know, I thought about it more and there just might be a very good reason why Yoda would tell Luke he is the last Jedi. We know from the clone wars cartoons and rebels that the jedi were corrupted, they fell into the darkside by becoming generals and leading armies. I'm sure Yoda even says this. Then Yoda went and got... "retrained" by those force things... The same training he gives to Luke. Then see how luke deals with Vader and the Emperor, Like a true Jedi he doesn't fight them ( stupid i know... right?!) but that's how the Jedi are suppose to be. ( Take note that no one likes this about Jedi and seems to ignore this fact about them, because everyone want to play the bad ass rule braking Jedi. But thats not what the Jedi are. The Jedi were bigots and disapproved or downright hated other force users outside the order which makes them hypocrites! I remember the case of the Iron Jedi, look it up. Its why I was starting up my own order and my "jedi" didn't remain Jedi for long, because the Jedi is flawed and BULL SHIT.) Not the Jedi we see during the Clone wars.

Yoda may not have wanted Luke to fall to the same "corruption" that the Clone war era Jedi did. So even if there are some around still in hiding or what ever, Yoda didn't want Luke to seek them out for more knowledge or additional training because that would be tainted training/knowledge.

IMO Yoda attempted or rather tested to see if Ezra Bridger would work for the training that would ultimately go to luke. Ezra failed much to Yoda's disappointment. You can see it! And where dose yoda send him to find knowledge, a Sith temple! Yoda sent a prospective Jedi to learn ancient Sith teachings, ( Teachings that may relate to Revan, but thats speculative at best) . Ignor that the temple was a sith weapon, its the sith Holo cron that was Ezra's goal, a goal Yoda laid out for him, or helped him realize.

So in closing, as i said before, I think Yoda may have been just as misdirecting as obi wan with his statement that Luke is the last of the Jedi, because he is right, from a certain point of view. Any Jedi from the clone wars is tainted and can't possibly be a jedi anymore, even if they think they are or not. Any "jedi" trained by these clone war era Jedi can't be considered Jedi as well because they received tainted knowledge/training.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Mir » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:07 pm

You could also argue that Yoda was trying to impress upon Luke the dire situation that everyone found themselves in, by basically saying that it was up to him, and he had to get the job done.

Neither here nor there.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Nichalus » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:25 pm

Cadden wrote: So when he tells Luke straight up that he's the last of the Jedi, I'm inclined to believe him. Why? Because it doesn't make sense to me that Yoda would tell Luke it's all on him if he knew there were others just as capable, if not moreso, out there that could have at least assisted him in the final hour. And, we know from RotS, Yoda has a deeper, more personal connection through the Force to others, evidenced by how he reacted when Order 66 was issued. So, if he says Luke is the last, I'm going to believe Luke is the last, especially after TFA goes on top state that Luke was training a new generation of Jedi when Ben threw a temper tantrum and ruined it for everyone.
The error in that theory is that Yoda 'did' know there were others as evidenced in The Empire Strikes Back as Luke is rushing off to save Han and Leia:

Ben "That boy is our last hope."

Yoda "No...there is another."
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Nichalus » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:42 pm

And yes, I know that Yoda said that in ESB, and that he said in RoTJ that Luke was the "..last of the Jedi, you will be." before he died.

My point is that what he said in RoTJ is a 'lie' because "...there is another" is stated in ESB. Yoda was not against a little lying if the ends justified the means..IE...gets someone to work harder, learn faster, etc... Which is sort of proven with Luke, since he dedicated himself to the Force, became a Jedi Master and was beginning to train the next generation of Jedi.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Cadden » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:11 pm

Yeah, but when he said that, he was referring to Leia. Not exactly a trained Jedi. Obi-Wan was saying Luke was their "last hope." But Leia, being his sister and, therefore, Vader's daughter, had the potential, but not the training. Which, I personally think, is why Obi-Wan wasn't considering her in the equation. Plus that whole Journal of the Whills thing that talks about a son of suns and whatnot kind of makes it clear that Luke was supposed to be it from the get-go, and maybe they saw Leia as a backup plan. But that's just my speculation based on the canon Lucas had laid out before us at the time.

Now, Yoda didn't exactly seem like he was in the position to know he'd be kicking the bucket a year later. I somehow doubt he would have said Leia was an alternative if he knew he wouldn't have the time to train her, should Luke fail.

Keeping in mind that, at the time of ESB and RotJ, the three movies was our only bona fide canon. (The EU was always considered overwritable with whatever Lucas said goes.) There was no other evidence, in the movies themselves, that there were other Jedi hiding out at the Winchester, having a pint, while waiting for the whole thing to blow over.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Pryde » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:13 pm

The Empire signed a treaty with the Republic shortly after the Battle of Jakku. Since then the Empire's been moving most of its forces into the Unknown Regions where the NR cannot find them. After that Snoke began to reform the ENTIRE Empire into the First Order, so no the First Order is not small and neither is the Republic. At this point in time the galaxy is pretty much split half and half.

Also, I resent the thought that no one here likes to play Jedi who follow the rules considering I had attempted in the past on numerous occasions to encourage people to role play Jedi on diplomatic missions. I wanted to return the Jedi to something resembling what they were before and while I do believe they lost their way I don't believe they fell so far as you claim. The Jedi taking part in the Clone Wars was a mistake, Yoda says as much, but before that they weren't as corrupt as you claim. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were sent to Naboo to negotiate, it was the Trade Federation who attacked first.

Furthermore, there is evidence of exemplary Jedi here on these forums. Kalja Leidias, comes to mind for one. My own Felicity Sage helped to reform three dark siders and turn them into Jedi and Caitlyn has worked with Sith on a number of occasions when the situation called for it. Not every Jedi here is attack first ask questions later.
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Re: Reboot Discussion - Jedi/Force Users

Post by Mir » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:19 pm

Pryde2000 wrote:At this point in time the galaxy is pretty much split half and half.
From my understanding the FO is predominantly in the Unknown Regions. Like 90%. I don't think it's half and half when it comes to the known galaxy.
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But then there's like Keira Sage. ;)
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