Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Vox » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:53 pm

We also don't know how long Luke was on Dagobah. So we don't know what exactly he was trained in. Just like we don't know where Rey learned to fight to defend herself.

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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Mir » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:00 pm

Prob like 20 minutes.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Pryde » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:01 pm

I thought it was pretty clear where Rey learned to fight. She had to figure it out for herself along with everything else. Her training regimen over her entire lifetime was far more grueling than anything Kylo Ren has been through. She is physically stronger than him because she's spent her whole life climbing up and down starship wrecks and lifting big, heavy machinery.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Mir » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:05 am

A training regimen of being physically fit does not translate into better fighting technique.

He had far more familiarity with the chosen weapons of the fight than she did.

I watched it again two nights ago with Popsicles. Upon a second viewing, most, if not all of her fighting before Kylo says that she needs a teacher and she goes into Saiyan mode was desperation attacks, trying to fend him off.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Pryde » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:09 pm

Yes, and then she taps into the Force and the Force guides her like Maz Kanata said it would.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Mir » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:38 am

JMTs should not work on 007!

Bond: [laughing - after being stuck five times with a knotted rope] Now the whole world's gonna know that you died scratching my balls!

That takes some balls right there.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Vox » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:28 pm

Pryde2000 wrote:I thought it was pretty clear where Rey learned to fight. She had to figure it out for herself along with everything else. Her training regimen over her entire lifetime was far more grueling than anything Kylo Ren has been through. She is physically stronger than him because she's spent her whole life climbing up and down starship wrecks and lifting big, heavy machinery.
This, right here, is an assumption right? Not... Factual by experience I hope?

The reason I ask is... I fight. Literally. Like MMA, Muay Thai kickboxing fight. I will tell you right now that having fought guys that are stronger than me, "street fighters", boxers that have more experience in that field than I have in muay thai and I've won. The logic you have used doesn't make any sense what so ever. Training is greater than any "life experience" in terms of fighting. If that weren't the case why the hell wouldn't we just drop people into a war zone for a few years and go "learn so we can use you"

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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Archangel » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:33 pm

I really liked the film, so I'm going to skim through here and try to refute things I think have obvious answers. Other things I'm going to offer, "Maybe they're thinking along these lines," or, "I thought something like this," and you can take it as you will. I'll also agree with some things. I'll also repeat some of you, almost word-for-word, because I won't have read the entire thread until I finish my post.
Jagtai wrote:1. J.J.Abrams should never have been allowed to direct a Star Wars movie. Chalk up another franchise ruined (well, damaged at least) by that jerk.
J. J. Abrams isn't, to my knowledge, directing any more Star Wars movies. 8 already has a different director. But his biggest crime in 7, in my opinion, is his tendency to rip lines of dialogue from earlier material en masse just to make people feel like he's making something in the same universe. Hey, J. J.! We can believe that Han Solo is Han Solo even if he doesn't say the same thing he said in an earlier movie (same goes for Kirk and Spock, while I'm at it).
Jagtai wrote:2. I'm fervently opposed to Abrams killing Han. It may make sense from a story POV (too bad the story is kinda weak), but you DON'T KILL HAN! This obsession with killing mains to advance the story is getting old and incredibly stale.
This is the major complaint I expected, and the one I most sympathize with while still disagreeing. For about five minutes after it happened, I thought to myself, "This is the worst," and then it started to make a little more sense, and I could see what they'd done, what they intended, and how it worked.

For one thing, I think you've mistaken the original trilogy cast members for the main characters of the sequel trilogy. To me, Poe, Finn, and Rey (monosyllabic names much?) are the main characters of 7-9. Han, Luke, Leia, et al, are the Obi-Wans and the Qui-Gons of that trilogy. And those guys both died.

I also don't think it's just a "story gimmick" to kill a major character. It wasn't about scaring the audience (although killing Han Solo does have kind of the opposite effect of the Refrigerator Scene of Crystal Skull). It (1) developed Kylo Ren into a genuine villain, rather than a whiny, "under-loved" brat; (2) gives motivating influence to Rey, Finn, and (eventually) Luke; and (3) strongly fits the narrative style of previous Star Wars films. Which is to say, it's as though you watched Episodes 1-3 first then got really, really mad when Obi-Wan dies in Episode 4. As much as I love Han Solo, Ford is in his seventies; you can't build a trilogy franchise around a man who delayed this movie because of injuries and might die before Episode IX (and 10, 11, 12??) is released. You also can't build a successful trilogy around a main character in his sixties or seventies; late-night goings and body aches, while humorous, aren't relatable for most young audiences.
Jagtai wrote:3. As usual in Hollywood lately, the story seems to be there to support the special effects rather than the other way around, as I'd prefer.
Maybe you saw it in 3D and it looked gimmicky or something, but the movie I saw seemed very practical and down-to-earth; the effects were far more reminiscent of the original trilogy than the prequel trilogy. I found it entirely believable that we could have gone from Episode VI to Episode VII without also feeling like the Star Wars universe took a 1000-year jump forward in pretty technology. It's still very dirty, gritty, real in its effects.
Jagtai wrote:7. Kylo Ren/Ben must be the wimpiest (is that a word) villain in SW history. I don't like the character.
I think what we're seeing in Kylo Ren is a cross between prequel Anakin and original Luke. Both were whiny. Both were wimpy. Both were endowed with powers they couldn't understand at first. Both had insufficient training. Both came into their own (although Anakin wasn't really awesome until Episode IV, but I digress). We saw a lot of development for Kylo Ren, but he's not meant to be Darth Vader. He literally is a Darth Vader wannabe. I think it will take time for him to get there.

I also think Kylo Ren is an excellent take on the light side/dark side concept. In Anakin, we saw someone who was constantly struggling with the dark side, and ultimately failing to choose the light over and again. In Luke, we saw someone who struggled with the darkness briefly, but held to his ideals (the quintessential hero). In Kylo Ren, we see a character who struggles with the divide between light and dark; he sees both sides, and for whatever reason, he chooses the darkness. He embraces it. He is not all lost; there is still good in him, "I can feel it" (yes, thank you, J. J., it said "Star Wars" on the board outside, so I know what movie I'm in, thanks)--but then the sun evaporates, darkness falls, the red light burns brighter, and he stabs his own father through the chest in his most daring commitment to darkness yet.

Yes, he throws temper tantrums, but he's like a 25-year-old millionaire who's never been denied anything before. He has the power of the dark side, and the most (in-)famous bloodline in the galaxy to fuel his rage. The overwhelming anger is something he embraces to get closer to the dark side, to gain power, because he thinks carrying on Darth Vader's legacy is good. Why he's latched onto that hasn't been revealed yet--but consider what has been revealed:

(1) He was being trained by Luke to become a Jedi, but turned to the Dark Side. Leia thinks this was Snoke's influence, Han thinks it was Vader's blood, and Luke thinks it was his own lack of experience training Jedi. We can't know which is correct with the information we have.
(2) He's actually not that experienced. The First Order officers don't look at him the way Imperials looked at Vader; Kylo Ren is a brat given too much authority in their eyes (because he's a favorite "special" of their Supreme Leader, not because he's been through the academy, knows strategy, or can even fight all that well), not a terrifying Dark Lord. Snoke also says that taking a droid from Han Solo is his "greatest challenge yet," or something to that effect. Are we really going to claim that Kylo Ren is some sort of special forces supersoldier in the Dark Side when facing down a retiree, a scavenger, and a defecting Stormtrooper to retrieve a droid is his "greatest challenge"?
Jagtai wrote:4. The story is pretty weak all together, and I kinda fail to see how you can make 3 movies from it. It could easily be wrapped up in EP 8.
I guess I'm curious to know what you think "the story" is here. I think there's plenty of depth and room for growth here; it's not just, "Find Skywalker, he'll stop this First Order!"

For example, at one point, someone said, "If Skywalker returns, so will his Jedi," or something to that effect. Maybe they're not all dead by Kylo Ren's hand; maybe he's still training them, or maybe they're in hiding.

At another point, someone (I think Snoke) mentioned "the Knights of Ren." We already knew "Ren" was more title than name, but now we learn there are also "Knights of Ren." Kylo Ren isn't the only one. What we don't know is how that relationship works; is he "Kylo Ren" because he started the Knights? Because he's a member? Is he the master, or one of the apprentices? He clearly wanted to train Rey, but also very clearly isn't capable. Is his master Snoke, or someone else? He was constantly trying to prove his worth, his value to Snoke. "I can break her! Don't worry about the droid! I'll get her to join us!" etc. There's a lot more going on here than "it's the Emperor and Darth Vader all over again!"
Jagtai wrote:Bad:
  1. Han dies (big BAD!)
  2. No Tattooine, Coruscant, Naboo or any other "known" world. Only new ones.
  3. Very (too?) similar to EP4
  4. Snoke (wtf?!)
  5. Wimpy Kylo Ren
  6. Death Star wannabe (that thing was stupid)
  7. Very little screentime for Phasma (the character actually seemed interesting)
See above and Mir's post for 1-5.

Re: Starkiller Base. First, I don't think it was a Dyson Sphere. I think it was just a planet with a big hole cut out of it. And it feeds into one of my biggest beefs with the films, which is also the thing people whine at me the most about when I mention it: physics. There has been much digital ink spilled over the physics of Star Wars, so I won't get into most of it; I guess I'm hoping that Disney/Abrams committed to "what looks like lasers is actually plasma/superheated gas," because the, "It's super-fast, but also super-slow, visible from star-systems away, and can be caught with the Force," stuff bothered me at the time, but works if it's some kind of matter.

I also don't like how vulnerabilities keep getting moved further and further from the most protected areas of a base.

I also think that the Starkiller Base confuses all of the issues regarding the New Republic and their involvement in this fracas between the First Order and the Resistance. There's some suggestion that nobody knew it was there ("Let's use this super-thingy for the first time ever!", as if military hardware testing wasn't a thing), but that seems super-unlikely for any multi-star system government ("Spies? What are spies?").

So I didn't care much for Starkiller Base, to be honest.

Re: Phasma, I'm sure she's not dead. General Hux is obviously not dead. Kylo Ren is obviously not dead. We didn't watch any of them escape, but they definitely did. We'll see more of them and learn more about them later. (On that note, I noticed that Episode 7 is much more reluctant to kill unimportant officers, so maybe they're not so unimportant.)
Mirrodin2nd wrote:The first is pacing.
I agree about pacing. The character introductions seemed appropriately slow, then everything amped up and never stopped spinning until the movie ended. It was a little too much action, and I suppose it's another thing Abrams tends to bring to a franchise. (Hopefully Disney won't also replace him with a "Fast and Furious" director.)
Mirrodin2nd wrote:The second is backstory, which is far bigger of an issue.
I also agree, to a point. I think they have three options for solving that mild sense of being lost, and I'm not a huge fan of any of them:
(1) Episode 7 was secretly a commercial for all of the New Expanded Universe materials being written and shipped as fast as Disney can pay people. Because how else will we know why C-3PO has a red arm if we don't buy and read 50 books in the next year and a half?
(2) Flashbacks in future movies. It could work, it could keep Harrison Ford on the billet, and it could answer so many, many questions. But it's never been done in a Star Wars movie, unless you count Force visions, and I'm not actually sure it could work.
(3) Spinoffs for backstory. Watch all the intervening movies (and future movies) to better understand the intervening time. (Based on what we've heard about the first couple of spinoffs, backstory wouldn't start for half a decade, and that's annoying.)
Vox wrote:Maybe it was Finn waving around a lightsaber without any skill or practice fighting a horribly portrayed bad guy.
I think the whole point of that "Finn fights another Stormtrooper with a lightsaber" sequence was to show us that Finn got extensive melee combat training before being put in the field. Even without the Force, he's got at least a few chops as a swordsman. (Hence why he was rather quickly defeated, even if he did get a couple glancing blows in.)
Vox wrote:I wish the scale had taken my breath away like the other movies had and I hope that comes with the next movie.
I didn't have the same experience that you did here. I don't know about "taking my breath away," because I don't know that I've ever had that precise feeling, but the scale and the scope seemed on par with the Original Trilogy, at least. It was pretty epic. The only detractor from that scale was bad pacing.

I was also sitting pretty close to the screen in a recliner, so maybe that had something to do with it.
Mirrodin2nd wrote:This is a total flip of the certain point of view facet of ANH-RoTJ, to me. Ren sympathizes with Vader because Vader was seduced by the light side in his mind. That's pretty deep.
I totally liked this aspect of Kylo Ren. He even used the word "seduce" to talk about how his father might try to get him back to the light side.
corsos wrote:The First Order pretty much sucks in my book and they need to step up their game in Episode 8.
I think we haven't gotten to see enough of them yet. I think it's a backstory problem more than a villainy problem. We just don't know who these guys are, why they're a Big Deal (amazing nickname, I thought), or what else they've done besides build a Starkiller.
corsos wrote:6. R2D2 waited until the end of the movie to power up why exactly?
This is probably my biggest complaint about the film. Even if we're going with "Rey's Luke's kid," how would R2 know? He never sees Rey. He doesn't have the Force to sense Rey. It's not even like "Someone drops the old lightsaber and R2 notices it and comes back online." There's no clear explanation for how R2 knows to reactivate when he does, even making a few assumptions about other things.
corsos wrote:9. The writing was actually pretty good. No beef with the script, and the acting for the most part was OK too.
I completely agree. I certainly never laughed out loud at George Lucas' writing (at least, not when he wanted me to). Finn is fantastic comedic relief, especially compared with C-3PO and Jar Jar Binks.
Vox wrote:How in the crap is Luke Skywalker and the Jedi considered a myth? After the death star and a new temple starting they all become myth after 30 years?
I think this ties into the "all planets are new planets" issue. None of these were touched by Luke Skywalker personally. They might not have even been touched by the Empire personally. Perhaps even the (old) Republic was "that government that rules those planets over there." But when someone like Skywalker exists, kills an Emperor and his Dark Lord henchman, topples an Empire, and wields magical powers? Word gets around. But most people won't believe nonsense like that. So he's a "myth."

I don't think that the trillions of billions of people in the galaxy had access to the same "Internet" where Skywalker became "memetic." Even if he had, folks don't believe all memes (nor should they). If you've never met him personally, and you've never met anyone who met him, why would you believe the magic empire-toppler exists?

Re: Han as myth, consider how Rey and Finn knew him differently. Finn knew him as the rebel soldier who fought alongside Luke Skywalker. Rey knew him as a "famous smuggler." And Luke was more myth for Rey than anyone. (See below for more of my thoughts on Rey.)
VagueDurin wrote:Han and Chewbacca lose the Falcon? Ok sure, Han does a lot of stupid stuff; I can easily understand how he could manage to let his ship get stolen. It gets stolen 2 (or 3?) more times and then sits in a junkyard for YEARS!? No. I refuse to accept this. I don't care how big the galaxy is, Han is not simply going to go on about his life and hope he happens across the Falcon during his travels. Did the Dude just go about abiding and drinking Caucasians, hoping the Chinaman would eventually come back around and steam clean his micturated upon rug? No. He did Not sir. The Dude did not let that unchecked aggression stand, man.
I thought about this quite a bit, and it rankled me at the time. But my wife reminded me that he had just watched his son turn evil and kill a bunch of people. He returned to old habits, but maybe not all of them, and there's got to be a lot of grief there. I, at least, was also ranking his love and use of the Falcon by EU content, not bare-bones movie content.
VagueDurin wrote:Complete lack of fallout for Han's death.
I think this has more to do with the pacing issue than anything. We never had time for a "D'aww, I'm sad Obi-Wan's dead now," moment with everyone. The closest was Leia and Rey hugging it out.
VagueDurin wrote:it always felt more intelligent, more subtle and between the lines in the original trilogy
Ehhh... I don't know. There was some good subtle humor in the original trilogy, but very little. And then the prequels were such a tremendous let-down full of blech attempts at humor that Episode VII is very refreshing. Plus, I like humor in my drama (see: Firefly).
corsos wrote:One problem with the idea that Ren is some kind of amateur.

His mind control powers, and his ability to stop a laser beam in middair and hold it there with minimal concentration doesn't jive with his inability to fight off an untrained force user that picked up a lightsaber five minutes ago.

I'm not saying it was a "bad" movie, I enjoyed it, but some of the stuff just didnt jive with what we already know, that's all.
I'm going with "Force savant" and sticking with it, because bloodlines and reasons.

I've grouped these because I want to address them simultaneously with the things I thought of during and after the movie.
corsos wrote:3. At what point did it become really really easy to learn the force? Rey (who I also like a lot) is doing stuff with absolutely no training that it took Luke three full movies and training sessions with Obi Wan and Yoda to learn. Seriously, the mind trick? Anyone with half a clue about Star WWars mythology and the force should have been able to call bullshit on this from the start.

4. Ren is a pathetic fighter. Now, maybe it was because he was wounded, or maybe it was because he was conflicted over the death of his father, but whatever the reason, his inability to wipe the floor with Rey and Fin in a lightsaber battle is embarrassing. Fin, an untrained non force user wounded him. There should be a better chance of Fin accidentally hurting himself than actually wounding a trained force user. Then Rey actually outduels him, with NO LIGHTSABER TRAINING AT ALL. C'mon now, please. This is the right hand of the main villain? THis is the guy that forced Luke into hiding and decimated his new class of Jedi? It didn't make a lick of sense at all.
VagueDurin wrote:Rey the Mary sue... Don't get me wrong, I am truly intrigued as to where the story of Rey is going to go in the future. I'll touch upon that later in the GOOD section, but for now, let’s talk about her insanely accelerated Force power development. Just no. She's going to go from thinking the Force and the Jedi are complete myths and legends, to using mind control, mind reading, and telekinesis by the end of it?! This will need some serious explaining after the fact for me to accept it. If she happens to have ended up being trained as a padawan up until she's abandoned on Jakku, fine, maybe... maybe the shock of what happened causes some retro amnesia or something and she just doesn't remember having been trained previously... farfetched but at least it’s an explanation... It's not just "well we know these are things that Jedi can do, and they use the Force to do it... so if she has access to the Force, all she's got to do is click her heals and imagine Kansas and she'll get there before the credits roll, right?"
We don't know that Rey has no training. All Rey seems to remember about her life is that her family left her on Jakku and is coming back to get her on Jakku. (We also know that she associates "coming back for her" with "family," hence why she really appreciates Finn on Starkiller Base.) When we watch her combat style throughout most of the movie, she has "street" skills, but no significant combat training; as others have said, that's not enough to take down a trained combatant.

First of all, consider what I suggested above (and Pryde, at least, mentioned elsewhere)--that Kylo Ren isn't actually that trained. He's kind of incompetent. He's a toddler with a handgun. He knows he has a lot of power, and he's going to use it to get what he wants, but he doesn't really know what he's doing. He's a far cry from the Sith we've seen in the past in that regard. So maybe he's working from a few stances and forms and extrapolating the rest.

Second, consider my hypothesis (which others have already mentioned, but I'm going to describe it like you haven't anyway). It seems pretty obvious to me (but I may be wrong) that Rey is Luke's daughter, and he trained her a great deal from a very young age because that's what fathers do when they know some pretty cool shit and have a kid. Then Kylo Ren, her older cousin, turns evil. Luke's sister's son takes after Darth Vader and tries to rule the galaxy. Luke blames himself (this seems well-established). Rather than lead his own daughter to the same fate (since his training is to blame, in his eyes), he leaves her behind on Jakku, promising to return for her there when he's solved whatever problem he has (by finding the first Jedi Temple maybe?). Maybe he also wants her to seek him out, using Maz Kanata as a pivotal moment (lightsaber, et al--although of course we don't know how anyone retrieved a lightsaber from the heart of a gas giant).

Things in support of this: (1) we never see Rey's family, and she doesn't seem to know anything about them except that they could show up at any second on Jakku--traumatic event, or Force mind wipe? (2) Her combat style finally changes to something dominant when she hears the word "Force" for the first time (I think?) from Kylo Ren, right before he kills her; memory trigger? (3) Latent memories about training regimens and philosophical one-liners ("The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded") could account for most of her other abilities. She also seems to know every language (what Wookiees would she have encountered on Jakku?) and every mechanical doo-dad. (4) Her "happy place," described by Kylo Ren when he was interrogating her, is a picture-perfect match for where she finds Luke at the end of the movie--and from that happy place, Kylo Ren (and Rey's train of thought, evidently) jumps straight to "the father you never had," Han Solo.

Things against: (1) No one recognizes her. This is kind of a big one. You should probably recognize your niece, even if it's been 15-ish years. (2) No mother in the picture. Obviously, this could be solved later, but there's no mention or implication of it at all.

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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by TalRaimi » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:55 am

Hey all,

I saw it last night for the second time and I have to say I enjoyed it a lot more without the weight of expectation. I think it's a good four star movie, I found the characters engaging and the emotional beats worked well. The part that didn't work so well was when you got away from the Rey, Fin, Kylo, story of searching for Luke and Star Killer base turns up. They blow up the Republic capital and... well who cares? There's just no emotional attachment there.

Also I agree the pacing was rushed in the second half of the movie. Super Weapon, no one's that surprised (although I guess after two Death Stars you might not be) about it, they track it to their base and destroy it... all too easy.

Overall though I do like it and am intrigued to find out about Rey's past. If she is Luke's daughter I quite like that, as that means she and Ren are both Vader's grandchildren, one reflecting his darker nature and one reflecting the good in him, there's a nice symmetry there.

Also when Ren talks about an 'Awakening' I wonder what triggers this... something Rey does? She's just escaped Jakku at that point. Also could this refer to awakening from a force mind wipe? I also liked the fact that her being drawn to Luke's Lightsaber is triggered by the fact Fin walks away and leaves her... like someone left her on Jakku.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Mir » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:56 am

Yeah the Dyson sphere thing I messed up on. Upon second viewing, I realized my mistake.

I'm sure the backstory will be expounded upon, and of course number 1 is a fact. That's was part of my reasoning for why all new planets. I only wish we could have snacked upon more crumbs from the table that is the plot committee's table/Disney's money counting table.

*buys a crossguard saber because he needs it in his life*

What? It'll explain more of the plotz.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Archangel » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:35 pm

Relevant article, since all content is canon now.

My wife also found an article suggesting a relationship between Kenobi and Rey, which I found not impossible, but the more "reasons" they supplied, the more it sounded as true as, "And if you're an Aries, you will find true love after you find true peace." (Which is to say, vague and malleable enough as a theory that almost any facts could support it.) And they never explained what familial relations Kenobi might have had, and I found the idea of "Obi-Wan's mistress" fairly incoherent with the character we know.

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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by TalRaimi » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:51 am

Yeah my friend is convinced Rey is Obi-Wan's daughter and while not impossible, to me that just wouldn't feel right. I said it would be better if she was Luke's daughter and we now have a bet, assuming we find out in the next movie, then whoever's wrong buys the other person a ticket to Episode IX.

Of course sods law will probably mean we're both wrong.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Pryde » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:03 pm

I wouldn't be so sure. Kathleen Kennedy has gone on record saying the trilogy is the story of the Skywalker family and so far only one person bears that name and we know that this trilogy is not about Luke. We also know there's a reason why Rey doesn't have a surname and I highly doubt that's because it's Rey Kenobi. It has a nice ring to it and everything but if these films are really about the new generation of Skywalkers and the shit they have to deal with then the stakes just aren't high enough with a descendant of Kenobi. A descendant of Luke, on the other hand...

Plus, like the only facts I've seen that support a Ben Kenobi connection are like his voice during the flashback and her sneaking about on Starkiller just as Obi had done on the Deathstar (oh, and I guess her accent which she could have picked up from her mum or someone on Jakku). Meanwhile there is gobs of evidence to support a Luke connection. So much so the movie practically slaps you over the head with it. If they had gone through all the trouble to tease Rey Solo and then tease Rey Skywalker only to end up at Rey Kenobi then it's going to look like Disney and LFL have no freaking idea what they're doing.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Cadden » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:00 pm

Luke's and Yoda's voices were heard in the vision, too. I missed them first time around, but upon rewatching and listening for them, I (barely) heard them. Therefore, that's not much to stand on.

It's Rey Skywalker. JJ tried the same thing in Into Darkness's promo material with Khan. ("It's not Khan, honest. Oh, the first teaser about genetically altered humans? No, that's someone else, fo' sho'.") They made so much effort to not blatantly state it, they forgot how to hide it. (Force Awakens teaser? "The Force is strong in my family. [...] You have that power, too." Blatant, much?)
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Mir » Thu Dec 31, 2015 3:38 pm

Archangel wrote: I think this ties into the "all planets are new planets" issue. None of these were touched by Luke Skywalker personally. They might not have even been touched by the Empire personally. Perhaps even the (old) Republic was "that government that rules those planets over there." But when someone like Skywalker exists, kills an Emperor and his Dark Lord henchman, topples an Empire, and wields magical powers? Word gets around. But most people won't believe nonsense like that. So he's a "myth."
But what about all those star destroyers and wreckage on Jakku? And the AT-AT. They're just chilling there like Beast Mode "Bruh I been here the whole time."

Also, they show her being on Jakks when she's maybe like 5-7. Assuming she's one of Luke's chitlins, how/why would she not have heard of the guy who does the best Joker voice in history?
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Pryde » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:21 pm

Cadden wrote:Luke's and Yoda's voices were heard in the vision, too. I missed them first time around, but upon rewatching and listening for them, I (barely) heard them. Therefore, that's not much to stand on.

It's Rey Skywalker. JJ tried the same thing in Into Darkness's promo material with Khan. ("It's not Khan, honest. Oh, the first teaser about genetically altered humans? No, that's someone else, fo' sho'.") They made so much effort to not blatantly state it, they forgot how to hide it. (Force Awakens teaser? "The Force is strong in my family. [...] You have that power, too." Blatant, much?)
J.J. even says that Star Wars is not known for it's subtlety. He even goes on further to say that it's a movie for kids that isn't necessarily just for kids so he didn't want to make it too convoluted. The whole she's Rey Solo, no wait she's Rey Skywalker, no wait she's Rey Kenobi thing is enough to make your head spin and way too complicated.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Pryde » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:29 pm

Mirrodin2nd wrote:
Archangel wrote: I think this ties into the "all planets are new planets" issue. None of these were touched by Luke Skywalker personally. They might not have even been touched by the Empire personally. Perhaps even the (old) Republic was "that government that rules those planets over there." But when someone like Skywalker exists, kills an Emperor and his Dark Lord henchman, topples an Empire, and wields magical powers? Word gets around. But most people won't believe nonsense like that. So he's a "myth."
But what about all those star destroyers and wreckage on Jakku? And the AT-AT. They're just chilling there like Beast Mode "Bruh I been here the whole time."

Also, they show her being on Jakks when she's maybe like 5-7. Assuming she's one of Luke's chitlins, how/why would she not have heard of the guy who does the best Joker voice in history?
She's totally heard of Luke Skywalker though the book delves more into the stories she's heard than the movie does. Either way the line she speaks, "I thought he was a myth," was originally supposed to be, "Who is Luke Skywalker?" Buuut, the writers decided that didn't make any sense so we get the myth line instead. So yes, Rey has heard about Luke Skywalker.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Mir » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:00 pm

Right but that discredits the idea of her being Luke's kid even more. Or even a Solo.

Why would she not know who that is or act like he's a myth or question anything, if that's her father? I'm willing to believe that she's pretending, based off of the "Classified" thing with my man Beebs, but even still, in this situation, as opposed to with BB-8, it comes across as true disbelief or awe.

If she was a Solo kid, she had to have been around her older brother, and she had to have met her uncle at some point. Sheeeeeeeiiiiit, the way Threepio talks a lot, she would have heard of him.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Cadden » Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:32 pm

Pretty sure Han and Ben/Kylo... and Chewie... and Leia... would have made that connection if she was Han and Leia's daughter. Luke's, however? Maybe, maybe not. If he was training a new generation of Jedi, and if she's younger than Ben, I could see it being since kind of amnesia thing going on. We don't know what she remembered of anything before she was dropped off on Jakku, and the vision seems to allude she was there during Kylo's creation/betrayal. Wookieepedia says she was born about 11 years after RotJ. One could sagely assume Kylo was in his mid to late teens when he did the dirty deed. This could pit Rey in the approximate rewired age range to be Luke's kid.

As for why she would never have heard of him? Whole Disney had rebuilt Star Wars canon, KotOR did teach us that users of the Force could suffer a form of amnesia when under certain circumstances. Or, to protect her, perhaps her mind was partially, but not permanently, wiped? I'm far more inclined to believe this than she's got no connection to Luke and she's just an accidental secret weapon the good guys just so happen to stumble upon. That doesn't strike me as following the Star Wars OT formula, like JJ has already said they did/are doing.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Vox » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:40 am

Mirr, she was being sarcastic with BB-8.

Cadden, she got dropped on Jakku at the age of like 4 so it couldn't really work but who knows.

I still think she's Luke's kid.

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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Mir » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:51 am

I know she was being sarcastic, but if it comes out that she's Luke's kid and all that, then that scene could be believable as something other than just sarcasm.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Cadden » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:12 am

We don't know when, exactly, the whole betrayal thing went down, Vox. But, if she's Luke's kid, that seems the most logical way to explain everything.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Pryde » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:32 pm

Mirrodin2nd wrote:Right but that discredits the idea of her being Luke's kid even more. Or even a Solo.
Not necessarily, she was dropped off when she was like five. I don't know about you but I don't have vivid memories of when I was five. Not to mention all her life she's probably been told over and over again that Luke was a myth, but someone kept telling her these stories and it may have been for a reason.

Plus, I have a feeling she didn't entirely believe they were myths to begin with. Her expression when Solo tells her it's all true speaks volumes.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Mir » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:55 pm

Pryde2000 wrote:
Mirrodin2nd wrote:Right but that discredits the idea of her being Luke's kid even more. Or even a Solo.
Not necessarily, she was dropped off when she was like five. I don't know about you but I don't have vivid memories of when I was five. Not to mention all her life she's probably been told over and over again that Luke was a myth, but someone kept telling her these stories and it may have been for a reason.

Plus, I have a feeling she didn't entirely believe they were myths to begin with. Her expression when Solo tells her it's all true speaks volumes.
You're adding on far too much to what little we've seen. There's no evidence there was some kind of reason behind why and how someone kept telling her the stories.

You're right, I don't have "vivid" memories of when I was five. But I remember who my parents were and what they looked like. Maybe not specifics, but definitely generalities. I remember my aunts and uncles as well, considering how often I saw them growing up. Especially nowadays since I don't go home that often so when I do see my parents (Dad is 71 and Mom is 63), the marked difference as they age is very conflicting with how I remember them.

Mir remembers kindergarten bro. My old principal remembers my kindergarten.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Archangel » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:56 pm

I'm perfectly willing to assume that the little girl was a factual representation of when she was left on Jakku.

At the same time, it was a Force vision, and we didn't get a detailed biography. Maybe she was five. Maybe she was a really short 8-year-old. Maybe she was a tall and intelligent 3-year-old. Maybe she felt like a little kid, lost and alone, when her parent(s) left her on Jakku, and the Force showed her that way because the more she hurts about that moment, the more amplified those feelings of loneliness get, and the more she feels like a helpless child.

I really need to see this movie again, but I seriously doubt I'll come across another free babysitter before it leaves theaters. :?

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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Pryde » Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:56 pm

It's elaborated on in the novelization. Someone told her the stories. The part about there maybe be a reason is speculation.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by Mir » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:21 pm

Right. It is obvious that someone or something told her the stories. People don't (generally) know history without someone telling it to them or reading it somewhere.

That's why I said that there's no evidence behind why or how someone told her the stories and for what reason.

I'm willing to believe that it's a factual representation as well.
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Re: Not sure how I feel about EP7 *SPOILER ALERT*

Post by SmokeMare » Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:29 am

I'm going to have to keep this simple. I saw it, I liked it.

I enjoyed it more than the prequels. Agreed, it wasn't perfect. However a few little points:-
  • I think Harrison Ford wanted to be killed off. I also think he's a bit past his best - I didn't rate Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls. Though he was far better in this. I did think when they first met him, there was a bit too much of a comedy angle on the character. Seemed a bit fit, like they were making him into a caricature?
  • Kylo Ren is whiny as hell yes, but Luke was in Ep4 and Anakin was in the prequels. It's Star Wars, it has a history of whiny main characters.
  • I liked Finn and I liked Rey, I really think Rey was my favourite character. Who is she? My theory is that she's half Skywalker, half Kenobi. Why? How? I think she's obviously super force powerful - so has some Skywalker in her - but everything about HOW she uses the force, mind-tricks, sneaking around the fact that isn't a whiny tantrum thrower - that's all more Kenobi. I think she was one of Luke's padawans, but she's related to Kylo Ren and Kylo knows her and maybe is even responsible for her being on Jakaar.
  • I liked BB-8
  • I have no idea who Snokes is, my favourite theory is Darth Plageuis, but I'm not convinced.
Overall, I really enjoyed it. It wasn't perfect, but it was better than I expected!

Erm, didn't like how the new Storm Trooper helmet looks like Disney modelled if off Donald Ducks face. You kind of forget about it as you watch though.

Oh yeah, I really want to see more of Phasma, she WAS a missed opportunity.

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