Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Pryde » Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:32 pm

Archangel wrote:
Nichalus wrote:Actually Arch I'm going to have to disagree with your logic there. Fantasy does mean you have a "license to do whatever" because ...well...it's fantasy.

Merriam-Webster defines Fantasy as "something that is produced by the imagination : an idea about doing something that is far 'removed from normal reality' (i.e. License to do whatever). :)
When defining the setting, yes. Once the setting is defined, you don't have license to change it however you like.

For example, if I write a fantasy book that no one has ever written before, I can say, "Everywhere a rectangle is drawn, a black hole opens and sucks people to their deaths!" If, in the sequel, I write that it's actually triangles, I've broken the rules. And it's certainly not reasonable for you to write a book in my setting and tell me that it's actually triangles that cause this phenomenon.
Except that these flame sabers are technically part of the setting, which granted your second argument still applies since pretty much all of the EU was written by people other than George Lucas. Still, though, it's not like they just pulled it out of their ass and said hey this is cool let's throw it in.
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:38 pm

Depends on what you define as the setting. To Arch's point, if you only consider I-VI as your setting, then when they introduced it in the EU, it as a violation of setting. But then again, they didn't show a double bladed saber in IV-VI, and they did in I, so you know, waffles.
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Archangel » Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:42 pm

Prior to the "flame sword" introduction in the EU, the concept was "laser sword." Even the double-bladed lightsaber still fits the concept of "laser sword." The "flame sword" makes no sense in the context of it actually being a laser sword that is somehow on fire.

To continue my earlier example, if I say in Book 1 that rectangles cause black holes, and then someone says in Book 2 that squares cause them, there's no contradiction. (Double-bladed lightsabers are the squares here.) But when someone writes Book 3 and says rhombuses cause black holes, most people will say, "Yeah, that's close enough--plus, it looks cool!" but they're still wrong.

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Pryde » Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:47 pm

The blade's not actually on fire, right? It's just destabilized which makes it look like fire, isn't it?
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Shaggy » Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:41 pm

That's what I am saying Pryde. The sword, the "blade"' everything about doesn't feel civilized. It feels raw and angry like a new/untrained Sith should feel (my opinion). However, since we don't know the full premise of the story we don't full know his training.

Call it the Scott's in me but I love the claymore looking lightsaber. As stated earlier I hope his style is more barbaric and straight up power. But that is just me. The last couple of Sith we have seen have been all about discipline with their saber fighting. Maul, for as cool as he was, used flips to which the double blade works well with. Dooku was all about form and his was straight up fencing. The Emporer's just looked like it was the first time he had ever held a saber. We never got to see Vaders in his suit but we heard it was about power and over powering his opponents.

I am. It going into this with super high expectations but also after attack of the clones, I don't think they could do any worse. So I will go in with an open mind and not looking to go over every detail with a fine tooth comb looking for what I feel are mistakes. That just ruins movie/entertainment for me.
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Vox » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:23 pm

Not to poke the bear but in all reality it doesn't matter because it's George Lucas's universe so if he says "the EU doesn't matter" then it didn't matter. If he says the lightsaber can look like a flame... It can look like a flame. He never said it couldn't look like one in any other movie so that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Given his involvement isn't directing he is still a creative advisor on the whole thing. The argument is honestly moot if he signed off on it.

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:29 pm

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Vox » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:31 pm

Except it's not Mir... Lucas and Disney said so lol

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:46 pm

They tossed the EU out of the accepted canon. That's why its Legends on Wook now. They said they might cherry pick here and there, but that doesn't mean they will.
As of April 25, 2014, the only previously published materials that are considered canon are the six Star Wars films and the Star Wars: The Clone Wars television series and film, while the Expanded Universe is no longer considered canon and was re-termed as the "Legends" brand. Most Star Wars material released after April 25, 2014—with some exceptions—is composed in collaboration with the Lucasfilm Story Group, making it part of the "new canon."
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Archangel » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:46 pm

Vox wrote:Given his involvement isn't directing he is still a creative advisor on the whole thing. The argument is honestly moot if he signed off on it.
Officially, Lucas signed off on everything in the EU. His creative oversight allowed or disallowed content. I wouldn't expect him to take a more proactive role now than he did then.

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Vox » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:51 pm

Mirrodin2nd wrote:They tossed the EU out of the accepted canon. That's why its Legends on Wook now. They said they might cherry pick here and there, but that doesn't mean they will.
As of April 25, 2014, the only previously published materials that are considered canon are the six Star Wars films and the Star Wars: The Clone Wars television series and film, while the Expanded Universe is no longer considered canon and was re-termed as the "Legends" brand. Most Star Wars material released after April 25, 2014—with some exceptions—is composed in collaboration with the Lucasfilm Story Group, making it part of the "new canon."

That was my point Mir...

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:59 pm

My picture said it was dead and you said it wasn't. Then I posted the quote about how it was dead, and you said that was your point, when you said it wasn't dead.

:raisedbrow:

Granted, my picture agrees with your prior post which was the point of me posting it. But then after that, weird things started happening. :rodian: + :twilek: = :fett:
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by GideonDuthuras » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:31 pm

Excuse spelling errors, I am writing this in the car on my phone.
Archangel wrote: :raisedbrow: You're welcome to your opinion; I'm welcome to mine.
You most certainly are welcome to yours, but I think there is some misunderstanding here.
Classifying Star Wars as fantasy misses the point, too,
We first need a working definition of the two genres, Fantasy and Science Fiction. I am assuming that you think of Star Wars as Sci Fi, based on your comments on the claymore saber.

One of the issues, and I run into this with my students in my Genre Studies class, differentiating genre and setting. I use Star Wars as an example of this because it is such a cultural touchstone. Keep in mind that when I say "Star Wars" I am referring solely to the films. 90% of the Star Wars EU is not good Star Wars.

When I ask students if Star Wars is fantasy or sci-fi they often say sci-fi. Their reasoning is that it has spaceships and lasers and is there for Science Fiction. But once we bring up the “rules” of the genre and the conventions/points of sci fi it’s clear Star Wars doesn’t follow them. Sci Fi has, since it’s likely “creation” with Frankenstein, dealt with using science and technology in the foreground to comment on current social situations and anxieties. Now granted, you can say anything is an allegory if you try hard enough, but with Sci-Fi the science is often, but not always, used to take concerns of the day and bring them to their semi-logical and most dramatic conclusions. Now, one doesn’t need to load down their sci-fi with technobabble like Star Trek, but the science needs to be instrumental to the plot. War of the Words is about the mechanization of war as well as the blooming field of microbiology. Frankenstein is taking the new hip trend of galvanization and merging it with the “established” science of philosophy. These are concerns and things that could happen if we aren’t careful enough.

Now when we look at Fantasy, we need to again see past the setting. It’s not all wizards and elves here. Because of this it’s really hard to nail down what “Fantasy” is and isn’t. Quite often the plot and setting of Fantasy is based in the myths of the author’s culture. The author will draw on a shared collective consciousness in order to connect their story to their readers. If you subscribe to the Monomyth, this could be an example of it in action. So we tend to have Epic Heroes on great Quests, where they learn Secrets of the old ways and eventually bring back a Treasure for their people.

One way to look at it is, unlike Sci-Fi, Fantasy is dealing with the impossible. Whereas Sci-Fi deals with the possible and the immediate, Fantasy deals with the impossible and the past.
but even fantasy establishes certain rules that it follows--magic systems and the like.
Not necessarily. If we look back at the older fantasy authors that inspired Lucas, such as Howard, Moorcock and Tolkien, or even look further back at the cheap penny dreadfuls they were riffing on, or even FURTHER back at the cultural myths, we can see there are no codified magic systems. Magic simply is. A magicians power either works or doesn’t depending on the purposes of the plot. Tolkien does not spend pages describing what spells Gandalf can do, the most you can say is that Gandalf is a very limited wizard.

If we look at the Force, it’s the same thing. No where in A New Hope is it suggested that the Force can make you super athletic or push/pull things around. Ben and Vader are limited at what they can do externally. The most dramatic and powerful thing the Force does in ANH is help Vader close a guy’s windpipe. Also it is not suggested that the Force is something genetic or inherent in people. Luke must “learn” the ways of the Force. It is an “ancient religion” that you can accomplish based on your faith, not your inherent skill.

Jump to Empire Strikes Back, and suddenly the Force makes you a telekinetic ninja who must be “strong in the Force” as opposed to “The Force [being] strong with [you]”.

Honestly, having codified magic systems is totally optional, and sometimes detrimental.

"Fantasy" does not mean "license to do whatever," it's just a different setting.
Again, genre is not setting.

And thats the thing, storytellers have total control to do whatever they want with their material. If in a fantasy an author has just rectangles make black holes, and then in the sequel rhombus’s can, that it totally their right and unless the core of the plot HINGES on those black holes being rectangles only, it doesn’t matter at all. And if it does matter to you, maybe that story isn’t for you.

Speaking just on the “flamesaber”, it’s perfectly reasonable in a world where there is sound in space, or where we have been told time and time again the Force is a spiritual thing, but it turns out to be more genetic (though that is more the result of the Jedi Order at the end of the Republic being really bad at being Jedi), or Leia not really being a Princess except by some weird democratic monarchy, or lightsabers suddenly being able to have two sides even though we all KNOW FOR SURE they can only have ONE. They are not using a “license to do whatever”, they are introducing a new element and that element hasn’t been explained in the 80 second teaser. But if we want to spit ball..

Out of World/Meta Reasons
-It looks cool.
-Like Shaggy has been saying, they are trying to tell you something about the weapon or the person wielding it. It’s angry, brutal primal, maybe damaged, maybe barely keeping from exploding, as much of a danger to itself as others.
-It aesthetically differentiates itself from others.
-People will buy a toy of it.

In World Reasons
It’s ancient, and lightsaber tech wasn’t perfected.
The character just wanted it that way.
After Return of the Jedi, Luke is the only person who knows how to properly make a saber, and this is a knock off.
It’s snowing, have we seen how a lightsaber reacts to falling snow?


Sorry to carry on at length on this, I’ve been mostly just killing time in the car writing.

I do find it fascinating that people seem to have picked on the saber, the droid (R2-FIFA), and - bizarrely - the Falcon’s rectangular dish as things that are terrible/wrong/signs that Star Wars is ruined. It’s hard to look at this nitpicks as any sort of informed opinion, and instead just seem like people being mad at change. And again in a Science Fiction film I would understand the concerns of the flamesaber being “totally unrealistic”, but in a Fantasy where the main character is a wizard from space? Why is realism even a factor? We need to be more concerned with how it will thematically fit, and whether or not the themes and morals and issues of the other films will be integrated into this one.
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Archangel » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:48 pm

I don't think anyone here said that Star Wars is ruined.

The TL;DR version of your post seems to be that you know more about this than I do and that my opinion is wrong. Thanks for the heads-up.

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Nichalus » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:53 pm

What Gid said....that is all. :)
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Nichalus » Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:55 pm

Archangel wrote:I don't think anyone here said that Star Wars is ruined.

The TL;DR version of your post seems to be that you know more about this than I do and that my opinion is wrong. Thanks for the heads-up.

Really Arch? What happened to...
Archangel wrote: :raisedbrow: You're welcome to your opinion; I'm welcome to mine.
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Archangel » Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:50 pm

He started off his post telling me that my opinion is based on my ignorance.

Frankly, I think that focused, hardlined differentiation regarding setting and genre falls into the exclusive realm of English lit professors, and you know what they say about those who teach. It's not like most writers sit down and say, "I'd like to write a fantasy novel in a science fiction setting. What are the characteristics of the fantasy genre and the science fiction setting so that I can write the best novel ever?" I have no interest in taking an English lit class; I've had four, which was at least three too many. I'm a reader, writer, and partaker of visual entertainment; I see no reason to make it academic.

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Vox » Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:09 pm

I've never seen Star Wars as sci-fi...ever. If it was sci-fi I would probably never write it.

Mirr, what I've always meant is that the EU = dead. Period. My point was that Lucas can do whatever the frell he wants because he created the whole thing. We say he ruined Star Wars but how can we say that? Star Wars is his not ours.

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:27 pm

Partially off topic, but R2-FIFA is my hero. He's just like "I'm rolling along here, minding my bidness, bruh. Step off. They told me I couldn't roll, that droids don't do that. But I gots no choice, it's just how I roll. So don't mess with me or you'll get rolled on. Bout that Droid Life"

He's a future modern day little engine that could.

Yeah.

Just look at that expression:

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by GideonDuthuras » Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:26 pm

Archangel wrote:He started off his post telling me that my opinion is based on my ignorance.
No. I just stated there was a misunderstanding. I meant that we clearly had two different ideas as to what the Sci-Fi and Fantasy genres meant. And then I proceeded to explain my stance. I was directly responding to you, but it had nothing to do with any perceived ignorance. I honestly just wanted a discussion as to the films. You made certain statements of fact about both Star Wars and Fantasy, so I assumed you had something you actually wanted to discuss or debate. However, I find comments like:
The TL;DR version of your post seems to be that you know more about this than I do and that my opinion is wrong. Thanks for the heads-up.
and
I think that focused, hardlined differentiation regarding setting and genre falls into the exclusive realm of English lit professors, and you know what they say about those who teach.
incredibly dismissive, petty, and passive aggressive towards me and my profession. All indicators that you have no actual interest is discussion. So I’ll just leave to you..whatever it is you want to do.


Anyway, this is all a distraction from the actual big news. So back to the trailer.



I really like the new X-Wing models. I think it’s great Abrams is going back to the Mcquarrie concepts for these things. They seem to be both newer and more “sleek”. And with the split engines and wings, they also sort of give this feeling as being less bulky and something built on more limited resources.

I also like Daisy Ridley’s speeder. Comparing it to the other speeders/speeder bikes we’ve seen it’s just this mammoth heavy brute of a thing.It’s more like an ATV than the “chopper” of the other bikes. You instantly get a feeling of her character and the type of person she is, which is great visual storytelling.

The only “off” things are the quick cuts during the stormtrooper “D-Day” sequence, they seem a little too gritty to thematically fit in. But that jumpiness might just be trailer artifacts.

Also, despite how on the nose it is, and assuming the trailer isn’t lying totally, I am 100% down with Episode VI starting with a stormtrooper crashing on Tatooine and being hunted by droids.

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Archangel » Sun Nov 30, 2014 2:32 pm

And I find comments like:
GideonDuthuras wrote:You most certainly are welcome to yours, but I think there is some misunderstanding here.
and
GideonDuthuras wrote:Again, genre is not setting.

And thats the thing, storytellers have total control to do whatever they want with their material. If in a fantasy an author has just rectangles make black holes, and then in the sequel rhombus’s can, that it totally their right and unless the core of the plot HINGES on those black holes being rectangles only, it doesn’t matter at all. And if it does matter to you, maybe that story isn’t for you.
and
GideonDuthuras wrote:It’s hard to look at this nitpicks as any sort of informed opinion, and instead just seem like people being mad at change. And again in a Science Fiction film I would understand the concerns of the flamesaber being “totally unrealistic”, but in a Fantasy where the main character is a wizard from space? Why is realism even a factor? We need to be more concerned with how it will thematically fit, and whether or not the themes and morals and issues of the other films will be integrated into this one.
pedantic and condescending.

The fact that you went out of your way to point out that you teach a class about this serves to underscore the impression that you're being pedantic. If you want a discussion, fine, we can discuss it--but I don't want to be taught a lesson, because--unrequested--that doesn't respect me in the slightest.

But let's take a moment to discuss this, since you seem to have missed that you came across as patronizing. First of all, "magic systems" and "codified magic systems" are not one and the same; I'm not aware of any codified magic systems outside of RPGs, for example, but magic systems are present and relevant to a broad range of fantasy stories. Let's look at Tolkien, since he's the most familiar to me of the authors you listed. We know that Tolkien's magic isn't codified, because there aren't set incantations or hand gestures for spells, and you don't need spellbooks, and it's not all enumerated somewhere; we do know that a staff helps, but isn't necessary. We also know that there are rules and limitations. Not even the Valar can teleport or kill people with a thought from any distance, or Morgoth would have won the old wars easily. Sauron could augment his own power, and influence the minds of others, but could not overwhelm every opposing will. Gandalf needed the eagles, Saruman needed the Uruk-hai, and Sauron needed the orcs. There are limits, and not only the limits of plot. (Harry Potter magic is closer to being codified, but even it has some "range" because of innate ability, among other things.)

Looking further back, let's examine mythology. Granted, Tolkien drew more from Norse mythology, but I'm more familiar with Greek mythology, so I'll start there. (From what I've read, Norse paganism isn't terribly different in this regard, anyway.) From a quick glance, it seems like the gods of Greek mythology do whatever they want. The number of rapes committed by gods seems to support that; they have no concern for moral behavior, and manipulate the politics of humanity in order to bring about war (among other things). But even Zeus has limits: he is almost always bound to the whims of the Fates (often he is "bound" in the sense of carrying out their will himself, but sometimes he is even subject to them himself), and like everyone else, he must always carry out an oath sworn by Styx. There are limits and rules to the behavior of the gods; they are not limitless in their power. (The Judeo-Christian God is one of few among ancient religions that does hold to genuine omnipotence.)

Simply put, Star Wars has rules, just like every other form of fantasy. Just because they're not spelled out in an appendix doesn't mean they don't exist. We know, for example, that the Force allows you to manipulate the physical world (choking a dude) and other's minds ("These are not the droids you're looking for"). The "Force choke" is used as a minor example of why the Force is more powerful than a Death Star (but we all know that it's really not, because if it were, they wouldn't need a Death Star). Leaping, telekinesis, and lightning are extensions of this principle (lightning being extraordinarily difficult--hence relegated to the mighty Emperor, and no one else). Right off the bat, we know that mind manipulation has limits (mostly the "weak-minded," although it may work on more strongly minded folks)--and this is reinforced with Jabba (and later, Watto). Even in the first film, when it seems like just anybody could become a Jedi, we learn that Luke's father was a Jedi (he was killed by Vader, whose task was to hunt down Jedi Knights) and that most of "using the Force" has more to do with sense and focus than it does with actual behavior. (Waving one's hand isn't always necessary, for example, but it can help you direct your torpedoes into a two-meter target.)

Having said all of that, of course, I'm not about to postulate that the operation of lightsabers is part of the "magic rules" of Star Wars. It's just not that important. I also didn't say that it ruins Star Wars. In fact, as I recall, I said that I didn't like it, and that it (that is, a laser on fire) wasn't based in science (two irrefutable statements), at which point, I was told that I was oblivious and ignorant (although I believe your exact words were "silly," "missing the point," and a metaphor expressing in what way I miss the point).

To back up my statements, though, let me restate my case. Even insomuch as the setting can be manipulated for reasons of plot, "blasters" are still basically laser guns and "lightsabers" are still basically laser swords. Lasers don't behave like fire, unless you establish that they do for some reason. The only sensible reasoning I'll grant (from what I've heard) is the "in the snow" explanation, since the blade doesn't look that dissimilar from how lightsabers behave in the rain (at least according to the EU). But it first made me think of the "blazing lightsaber" stuff in the EU, which, as I have said, I don't like.

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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:02 pm

For those concerned about the trailer, particularly in regards to the lightsaber: http://www.tickld.com/smsg/t/1083497
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Nichalus » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:14 pm

Ok...Arch, Gid...you made your points. Move on....
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:16 pm

Here are my lightsaber suggestions:

http://www.tickld.com/funny/t/1083121
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by GideonDuthuras » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:20 pm

Nichalus wrote:Ok...Arch, Gid...you made your points. Move on....
But....I was in the middle of being pedantic and condescending!

http://imgur.com/gallery/3nb6XCT
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:23 pm

YES MY COMEDIC GENIUS IDEAS STRIKE AGAIN! TAKE THAT POPSICLES! YOUR SARCASTIC "Yes, funny" CAN GO SHOVE IT.

:bothan:
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Cadden » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:57 pm

You know, I gotta say, after rewatching the trailer a few times... it's really grown on me....
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Pryde » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:28 pm

Nichalus wrote:Ok...Arch, Gid...you made your points. Move on....
I concur with my esteemed colleague, guys. Why don't we talk about how awesome I am instead? I think that's a win-win for everybody! ;)
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Pryde » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:43 pm

I don't think we're allowed to poke fun at the "beach ball droid" anymore since it's an original Mcquarrie design.
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:46 pm

This is America. I do what I want.
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Shaggy » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:04 pm

Just beware of reading your own voice inflection into text that is devoid of such inflections...

That is all.

And Mir, with the little droid, I just keep hearing, "they see me Rollin' , they hatin' , Patrolling they tryin to catch me ridin dirty
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:18 am

I know! I was texting Pops and he was all like "Yes, funny." all sarcastic like.

Like I'm not one of the funniest guys ever!

So hurtful.
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Nichalus » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:22 am

Funniest looking....most definitely. *smirk*
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Re: Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens

Post by Mir » Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:27 am

Oh my goodness, the originality in this one. :rolleyes:
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