Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Mir » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:20 am

http://collider.com/star-wars-episode-8-title/

Title is revealed as "The Last Jedi". Take from what what thou wilt.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Archangel » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:52 am

My thing is that the "Reasonableness Clause" paragraph says that we don't have to consult you if we absolutely know it won't cause a problem. If I'm unsure of where my story is going, or I think X, Y, or Z may happen to change things up, or I'm in a thread with a dozen people I have no idea whether things will follow my "plan," then I absolutely should consult you, because there's a possibility my story will affect others' and change things too radically (or more radically than I anticipate).

So in the case of my Forcer thread, I know exactly where it's going and what's happening to every character (even if they never get there because I'm too busy to write anything). According to the rules, I shouldn't need to consult you, not even to have >2 Force-using characters, because it affects exactly nil in the galaxy (but is more about establishing the characters I want to continue beyond that thread, Modig and Tiiona). In the case of the #VerdeSkwad thread, if I showed up with a ship full of Dark Jedi, even if my OOC "plan" was for them all to die, we got problems because things probably won't go according to plan.

As for the new movie title (aside from sounding awesome), I don't remember exact lines from TFA, but I'm pretty sure "Luke = last Jedi" was already established canon. But non-Jedi organizations are canon, and Rebels (in-universe) has made the strong suggestion that "last Jedi" might not consider people who used to be Jedi (or else Ben Solo would count and Luke wouldn't be the last Jedi).

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:24 am

I think they purposely are trying to spark debate.

The title could mean:

Luke is the 'last' Jedi, since hype has that VIII is going to be Luke centric.

Or

The last of the Jedi, meaning multiple, are gathering for some last fight or gathering.

I'm kinda excited to see which it will be.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:49 am

:bothan:
Mir wrote:http://collider.com/star-wars-episode-8-title/

Title is revealed as "The Last Jedi". Take from what what thou wilt.
Jedi aren't the only ones who can use the Force. This has been proven. You can't measure the amount of Force using cultures by the number of Jedi. The galaxy is too big for that.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:33 am

Pryde wrote::bothan:
Mir wrote:http://collider.com/star-wars-episode-8-title/

Title is revealed as "The Last Jedi". Take from what what thou wilt.
Jedi aren't the only ones who can use the Force. This has been proven. You can't measure the amount of Force using cultures by the number of Jedi. The galaxy is too big for that.
I don't think there is a single person on this forum that doesn't know this.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by VagueDurin » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:59 am

I'm just going to weigh in quickly... I've abstained from adding any opinions to this thread as my viewpoints have already been represented by other members and I felt no need to add to the kindling.

Overall I'm alright with the compromise as proposed by Nich, but I must say that I am troubled by the concept that we have established members here on the boards who see their time and effort spent here as bargaining chips or worse as reasoning that aspects of the rules weren't written for them or don't apply to them... If that were the case, and our rules were simply guidelines for the inexperienced... then what, we have rules in place for like, 3 members at best?

As others have stated, and frankly I don't think I've seen anyone who has stated the opposite, I'm also open to revisiting and potentially re-wording the rule. I would just hope that it is being done for the right reasons.

We can debate until all of us have carpal tunnel, but I don't think a consensus will ever be reached on the difference between Force Sensitive vs Force User, or for the what if's that exist in the current cannon.

For what it's worth, I never wanted to change our cannon in the first place, I much preferred our established lore to this disney muck... but that was what the community decided and if members wish to RP in this new mouse-verse continuity, there are consequences that come along with that. If an outlet for creativity and a wish for creative freedom are truly all someone is seeking, we have several perfectly good sub-forums that are not a part of an ongoing continuity that those individuals can write out whatever they wish.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:06 pm

Could we just get to a vote, or something? There seems to be a decent amount of people here who don't think or didn't understand that the rule applied to people with Force potential who never use the Force, side characters and villains whose scope stretches no further than the story they're participating in. Whether that was due to miscommunication the first time around or whatever, I don't know but given the recent discussion I'm clearly not the only one here who thought that checking "yes" under Force Sensitive for a character that was never going to use the Force would be that big of a deal. Obviously, the scope of the rule was not clearly discussed before everyone voted on it, so let's discuss it now.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:13 pm

Pryde wrote:... checking "yes" under Force Sensitive for a character that was never going to use the Force would be that big of a deal. Obviously, the scope of the rule was not clearly discussed before everyone voted on it, so let's discuss it now.
So wouldn't it be alot easier if you just checked 'no', and continued writing? If by what I underlined is true.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:32 pm

One of the things I like about the Wookieepedia is that all information is vetted and notated using information from official canon books, movies and the animated shows.

I think that the description of The Force, shown HERE, is a perfect example that shows that a Force Sensitive is the same as a Force User, and the fact that if a character doesn't have a sufficient amount of midi-chlorians in their blood, they don't get the powers.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:14 pm

Nichalus wrote:
Pryde wrote:... checking "yes" under Force Sensitive for a character that was never going to use the Force would be that big of a deal. Obviously, the scope of the rule was not clearly discussed before everyone voted on it, so let's discuss it now.
So wouldn't it be alot easier if you just checked 'no', and continued writing? If by what I underlined is true.
Because I still don't believe that Force Sensitives and Force Users are the same regardless of what that wiki article says. The fact it even starts exactly the same as the Legends article is a clear indication it was just copy-pasted over with Forceful changed to Force User because the former isn't an accurate term anymore. It's even more troubling that after spending hours sifting through page after page of google search results I can't find anywhere else that makes that distinction other than Wookieepedia itself. If anyone can show me a legitimate canon source where that claim comes from then and only then will I concede the point to you.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Archangel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:34 pm

Nichalus wrote:One of the things I like about the Wookieepedia is that all information is vetted and notated using information from official canon books, movies and the animated shows.

I think that the description of The Force, shown HERE, is a perfect example that shows that a Force Sensitive is the same as a Force User, and the fact that if a character doesn't have a sufficient amount of midi-chlorians in their blood, they don't get the powers.
Uggghhh.

I'm... I'm sorry.

I just suffered through 21 minutes of Jar Jar Binks so I could definitively confirm: That reference only supports the second half of the sentence ("the Force resided within all living things and could be extracted"), not the first half. It makes no mention of Force sensitivity being restricted to only a few. It makes no mention of Force sensitivity at all. The closest it comes is describing Jar Jar Binks as containing only "a little" of the Force ("what little is in you will be ours," I think was the statement).

So... much... Jar Jar...

He made out with a similarly proportioned alien queen.

It was. The worst.

At any rate, it has no bearing on the discussion at hand. And it doesn't show what you inferred at all.

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:41 pm

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Archangel » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:21 am

Right, that was it.

If anything, it reinforces the point that everyone has the Force, or the potential for the Force. It doesn't negate midichlorians and their influence, but sticks to the "natural talent" interpretation. Someone with average IQ can get good grades with hard work; the Skywalker line is full of Force geniuses who hardly have to work at all.

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:42 am

Archangel wrote:Right, that was it.

If anything, it reinforces the point that everyone has the Force, or the potential for the Force. It doesn't negate midichlorians and their influence, but sticks to the "natural talent" interpretation. Someone with average IQ can get good grades with hard work; the Skywalker line is full of Force geniuses who hardly have to work at all.
Midichlorians actually validate that. Qui-gon even says they reside in all living cells. Midichlorians were born on the Force Planet which StarWars.com describes as, "The foundation of all life," and without them, "... [L]ife could not exist." -- Qui-Gon, The Phantom Menace. I'm not saying everyone can use the Force at will whenever they want to. Some are more inclined to tap into it unconsciously than others (people with higher midichlorian counts). These are the Anakins, Lukes and Reys. Others might use it by accident without even knowing. Maybe all it took was a bit of faith, these would be the Jyns or Chirruts. Still others don't believe in the Force yet somehow seem to have incredibly good luck in spite of that. That would be your Han. The Force is everywhere in everyone's lives whether they believe in it or not because no matter who you are if you are alive you have midichlorians in your cells. Knowing all that is it really that big of a stretch to think that maybe sometimes the Force doesn't take such a passive role in people's lives? Anyone can have an influence on the Force or be influenced upon at any time whether they know it or not and before anyone claims I'm advocating for non-Forcers being able to Force Push at will I'm thinking much much smaller than that. Killing someone, for example, could be considered having an influence on the Force since as the body dies the being's energy rejoins the Force becoming one with it.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Halomek » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:35 am

To build off of some things Jag and Arch said earlier...

If the point of the Rule of Two was indeed to prevent powerful Force-users from swarming every thread, then that's already accomplished by two other rules for the forum:
Jedi/Force User characters will be limited in powers to that of a Jedi Knight.

There will be NO Jedi Masters at this time. Luke Skywalker is the only known Jedi Master.
Those two rules are rather straightforward, although the first one is a bit ambiguous. How does one define the power level of a Jedi Master to a Jedi Knight? Just about every notable Jedi we saw in the prequels was a Jedi Master and some of them went out like punks (Coleman Trebor anyone?). It's fine though. I like a little ambiguity since it encourages creative freedom in writing. Regardless, the spirit of those rules are pretty clear: don't make overpowered Force-users. I've got no issues with either of those rules. I would presume no one else does either.

Not so with the Rule of Two. You've got two different groups of people interpreting this rule differently. While the general intent is clear enough: Force-users should be rare, I would say the consensus of this thread is that the Rule of Two doesn't clarify that in a practical sense. Does it mean two main characters or two characters period? When this was voted upon initially, people did so assuming their interpretation of it was correct without really knowing if it was.

If you're going to enforce a rule this heavily, then it should be crystal clear from the outset what exactly the rule is. There should be no ambiguity in the rule unless the idea is to give players some wiggle room with it. Without specifying main characters, or all characters, in that rule, the Rule of Two became ambiguous due to the lack of those qualifiers in the wording. If nothing else, I would say that's reason enough to reexamine the rule now as a community.

To be clear, I agree with the idea behind the Rule of Two. Force-users should be rare in the time period of the new canon (with the exception of the Knights of Ren). I don't think anyone is really disputing that. It's just how we go about it that is creating so much friction.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:21 am

First of all, I don't know why it linked to the 'Disappeared' episode, my intention was for you all to read the article 'as a whole', not specify that. I apologize for subjecting you all to that much Jar Jar. I might be a grumpy Old Man, but I'm not THAT grumpy and mean to subject you all to that purposefully.

Some quick quotes that I felt are important:
"The Force was an energy field that connected all living things in the galaxy. The power of the Force could be used by individuals who were sensitive to it, a power that was tapped through the midi-chlorians.
"It was believed that the midi-chlorians, which connected the Living Force and Cosmic Force and allowed a Force-sensitive individual to feel the will of the Force, originated on the Wellspring of Life located in the Deep Core.
In the article describing midi-chlorians HERE:
a bond that was especially strong with Force-sensitive beings who possessed a high quantity of midi-chlorians in their cells.
" The Force spoke through the midi-chlorians, allowing certain beings to use the Force if they were sensitive enough to its powers.[/u]


This part, in my opinion, speaks volumes. You 'had' to have "a high quantity of midi-chlorians" to be able to use the powers of the Force, which..to me..says there is no distinction between a Force Sensitive or Force User. You either had enough to use any aspect of the Force, or you didn't. Meaning 'yes', the Force resides in all of us through the Midi-Chlorians, but you need sufficient quantities of them to actually use the powers.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Archangel » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:30 am

I'm not sure that adequately addresses the semantics of "Force-sensitive" (high midichlorian count) versus "Force user" (someone who utilizes the Force to achieve ends or accomplish purposes). Luke was Force sensitive at the beginning of A New Hope, but not a Force user. Anakin was Force sensitive at the beginning of the Phantom Menace, but not a Force user. Rey was Force sensitive at the beginning of the Force Awakens, but not a Force user.

The distinction between "Force sensitive" and "Force user" has nothing to do with capacity and everything to do with whether or not people actually used the Force. Capacity is only relevant to distinguishing between "Force insensitives" and "Force sensitives."

Which is to say that all Force users are Force sensitive, but not all Force sensitives are Force users. Like whales and mammals, or Venn diagrams and diagrams.

I still like the "anyone can use the Force through hard work" angle, but even if we agree with the "only some people can use the Force because of high midichlorian counts," it still doesn't equate "high midichlorian count" to "actively uses the Force."

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:43 am

Then it would be easy enough to say:

"Everyone is Force Sensitive, but you can only 'use' Force Powers if your character's midi-chlorian count is at a sufficient level to do so."

Thus, for the sake of clarity to the Rule of 2, you can only have 2 Characters that have sufficient amounts of Midi-Chlorian in their blood to be able to use the powers of The Force.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:47 am

We can further state that since it is on record that Anakin...so far...is the only Force Sensitive who's MC count was the highest ever recorded at 20,000, and that no member's character can have a MC Count...at this time...higher than say 10,000 (that's an assumtion that a normal Jedi Knight would be half of that, or perhaps more or less)
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:19 pm

Why do we have to make all these distinctions? Why not just limit the number of people who actually use the Force.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Mir » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:56 pm

According to the distinctions that some people here hold between "force sensitive" and "force user", we're already doing that.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:07 pm

Mir wrote:According to the distinctions that some people here hold between "force sensitive" and "force user", we're already doing that.
That's fine I'm okay with that but why are we counting midichlorians now? For the same reason we don't want to start counting fleets I don't want to have to start counting midichlorians. It feels too much like simming. Heck, even Star Wars didn't specify exactly how many midichlorians Anakin actually had.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Halomek » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:12 pm

Basing things on midi-chlorians feels a lot like we're trying to rank characters by power level, DBZ style. And DBZ only did that to show how unreliable power levels are (even if a lot of fans missed the point).

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:16 pm

I'm not saying that we're counting anything. I'm stating that there is a direct correlation between 'using' Force Powers if a being has a high enough level of MCs in there blood.

The simple fact is, if you are going to use Force powers and abilities, then your character counts as 1 of the 2 characters that can use the Force.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Jagtai » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:28 pm

Nichalus wrote:The simple fact is, if you are going to use Force powers and abilities, then your character counts as 1 of the 2 characters that can use the Force.
But does "Force powers and abilities" include extraordinary luck? Or are you referring to skills such as Force Jump and Force Leap and what not?

Just clarifying for my own sake.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:34 pm

Jagtai wrote:
Nichalus wrote:The simple fact is, if you are going to use Force powers and abilities, then your character counts as 1 of the 2 characters that can use the Force.
But does "Force powers and abilities" include extraordinary luck? Or are you referring to skills such as Force Jump and Force Leap and what not?

Just clarifying for my own sake.
I wouldn't count 'luck' as using Force Powers. Being lucky is...well...being lucky. When a bullet whizzed by my head once, I attributed that to luck, not some mysterious power residing within me. I just got lucky.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:37 pm

It also states in the Wook, that abilities using the Force include your mentioned abilities, pre-cognition, visions, enchanted agility, speed, etc..
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:02 pm

I don't particularly think that precognition is limited solely to Force Users. Chirrut displays a lot of precognitive tendencies such as being able to see Jyn's kyber crystal without actually, you know, seeing it. Further more, characters talk about how the Force shows them stuff all the time. Who's to say a non-Force Sensitive can't have a vision granted to them by the Force itself? I only ask the question as a possible plot device not because I plan for all of my characters to start having visions. For me it seems entirely plausible for a character to have an experience they believe is connected to the Force similar to how devout followers of religion believe they've seen or had experiences that showed them things or guided them. Like a ray of light shining through a window or a crack in the wall at just the right angle to illuminate something of significance to the story. Was it the Force? Or just good luck? Ambiguity is the point. Believing in something means having faith and faith in the Force is a real thing in Star Wars. The religion might not be as wide spread as it used to be but the Force itself is quite pervasive everywhere in everything.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:44 pm

Ok, this will be my final thoughts on this matter, because we're just splitting hairs here, and the discussion really isn't going anywhere near a forward position.

I get what Pryde is saying, he wants his characters to have some spiritual connection to the Force that allows him to tap into the 'luck' or 'vision' aspect of the Force, but doesn't 'have' the ability to 'use' the Force. Which makes no sense. You either 'have' the ability to 'use' the Force, or you don't. The only thing that separates how powerful they are in their abilities, are the levels of Midi-Chlorians in their blood.

To sum up:

YES...The Force is in everyone, but to use its powers and abilities, your Midi-Chlorians have to be at a certain level. If they are, Then you are a Force Sensitive, aka...a 'user' of the Force.

It specifically states that not everyone can 'use' the Force, even though the Force...namely the Midi-Chlorians... is the sole reason that 'all life is bound by the Force. IF you have enough MCs, then you can tap into the Force and use the special abilities that are granted to them through the MCs.

Whether you like, or don't like the Midi-Chlorians, is a moot point. The fact of the matter is, they ARE Officially Star Wars Canon, and the reason that some, not all, people can use the Force, and their levels are what dictates how good they are with it. This isn't speculation, it is printed and stated in the official sites, movies and animated shows.

As for the 'luck' aspect, Han Solo is NOT a Force Sensitive. No where in any officially filmed or printed item is it stated that he is. Oh, there is absolutely tons of fan opinions on the subject, but that is only opinion and conjecture..NOT fact. He is a extremely skilled pilot, gambler...who didn't win 'all' the time...remember he lost the Falcon to a couple of Sabacc games in the Legend books. Again, I base my thoughts on factual, filmed and printed things, not my personal feelings, nor that of others.

Personally, 'could' he be? It's possible, but that is opinion, not fact. Again personally, I like the aspect of thought that Han was as good as he was 'without' some limited use of the Force. He was just an extremely good pilot using his own natural abilities to get him out of a bind, time and time again..until of course..his Son murdered him. He sure didn't see...or 'feel'...that one coming, now did he?

Either you can, or you can't use the Force. You as members have to decide whether your character are or aren't, there really can't be a middle ground since we are following the latest known canon. And the latest known canon states that their are an extremely limited number of beings that can USE the Force...and that is a assumption as well, or more like a 'hope' that there is. What happens when VIII gets here and we find out that Luke, Ben, Snoke, Leia (who I expect will be killed off in VIII), 'perhaps' some of the Knights of Rinn, and Rey are truly the last Force Sensitives. That would suck 'badly' in my opinion.

I don't 'think' that it will happen, since the Force is as integral to Star Wars as the Skywalkers are.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:05 pm

Nichalus wrote:I get what Pryde is saying, he wants his characters to have some spiritual connection to the Force that allows him to tap into the 'luck' or 'vision' aspect of the Force, but doesn't 'have' the ability to 'use' the Force. Which makes no sense. You either 'have' the ability to 'use' the Force, or you don't. The only thing that separates how powerful they are in their abilities, are the levels of Midi-Chlorians in their blood.
Not "characters", maybe "character" but most likely not plural. Isis doesn't believe in the Force and that's not likely to change. I just don't want to have a situation where I have a spiritual character in a story who does believe in the Force and then something miraculous happens to him that he absolutely believes was the Force and maybe it wasn't or maybe it was the point is I would leave it vague. Then immediately after that someone else comes in and cries foul on that saying I'm breaking the rules. That's the situation I want to avoid, particularly since doing all this research into the Force has inspired me to try writing about the spirituality of the Force.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:13 pm

Nichalus wrote:Either you can, or you can't use the Force. You as members have to decide whether your character are or aren't, there really can't be a middle ground since we are following the latest known canon. And the latest known canon states that their are an extremely limited number of beings that can USE the Force...and that is a assumption as well, or more like a 'hope' that there is. What happens when VIII gets here and we find out that Luke, Ben, Snoke, Leia (who I expect will be killed off in VIII), 'perhaps' some of the Knights of Rinn, and Rey are truly the last Force Sensitives. That would suck 'badly' in my opinion.
That last bit is highly improbable within the context of the universe. The Jedi Order of old kept a list of especially gifted children they were going to induct into the Jedi Order and people aren't going to stop being gifted because a few Jedi initiates were killed before TFA. I really doubt Lucasfilm is going to go that route and say only these characters can use the Force and that's it. Otherwise how are the new Jedi going to rise? That's Snoke's greatest fear, right? That Luke will come back and the, "[N]ew Jedi will rise." That right there is evidence enough to suggest that there are other Force potentials out there just waiting to be found.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Cadden » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:07 pm

But the point is, that isn't everyone. Yes, the Force encompasses everything, that was explained in ESB with Yoda explaining the Force to Luke. But that doesn't mean everyone can or even should be able to use it. I mean, what's the point in there being limited Jedi if everyone can use the Force? It kinda defeats the point of its mysticism, and we'd otherwise have characters who've fought with, abs even against, Jedi and go, "Hey, maybe I should learn to use the Force, too."

Seriously, if every one of us have tried, and at one point in our lives actually thought we could, how infeasible is it for a fictional character in that same galaxy to do so and actually succeed? Suddenly it's no longer considered a mythical hokey relic of a religion but 20 years after the fall of the Jedi, because everyone would have wanted in on that sweet Force action.

I don't think people will throw a hissy-fit if you leave it ambiguous for your character, Pryde, so long as you're not intending to steer that person in any specific direction and it's only happening every now and again in such a manner. If the rules change appropriately, and the wiring remained in such a manner, I personally wouldn't see an issue if you do decide, at that time, to declare them sensitive to the Force, and thus capable of using it.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:14 pm

Cadden wrote:But the point is, that isn't everyone. Yes, the Force encompasses everything, that was explained in ESB with Yoda explaining the Force to Luke. But that doesn't mean everyone can or even should be able to use it. I mean, what's the point in there being limited Jedi if everyone can use the Force? It kinda defeats the point of its mysticism, and we'd otherwise have characters who've fought with, abs even against, Jedi and go, "Hey, maybe I should learn to use the Force, too."

Seriously, if every one of us have tried, and at one point in our lives actually thought we could, how infeasible is it for a fictional character in that same galaxy to do so and actually succeed? Suddenly it's no longer considered a mythical hokey relic of a religion but 20 years after the fall of the Jedi, because everyone would have wanted in on that sweet Force action.

I don't think people will throw a hissy-fit if you leave it ambiguous for your character, Pryde, so long as you're not intending to steer that person in any specific direction and it's only happening every now and again in such a manner. If the rules change appropriately, and the wiring remained in such a manner, I personally wouldn't see an issue if you do decide, at that time, to declare them sensitive to the Force, and thus capable of using it.
I think the point is that it requires a lifetime of training. You can't just do it when you want to.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by TalRaimi » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:03 am

So having missed most of this discussion including the middle part since my work internet won’t let me viewing anything but the first and last page of a thread, what was the general consensus on reviewing the rule on the number of Jedi (or Force Sensitive or whatever) you can have?

Personally while it may have made sense at the time we voted, I think it’s time to revoke it. After four years of so of Disney canon it seems to me that the writers of Nu Canon are given very specific boundaries in terms of what they right and are limited from actually expanding on the universe. The books just feel like filler and it’s down t the movies to expand things... which personally I don’t have high hopes for. There's only so much you can do in a two hour movie.

Take our Green Flight thread, there’s a reason most pilots are flying old fighters and it’s because we don’t have any new ones to fly because they’ve not expanded the universe. Now maybe in six years we’ll finally have a Nu Canon to match our old one, but right now it’s a pretty stale universe to RP in without limiting ourselves creatively by the Rule of Two.

While it’s correct to expect people to follow the rules, I think that after over a decade if you can’t trust our members to RP in a responsible fashion then this place is well and truly doomed. Even if we’re flooded with Jedi threads, so long as in the context of the IC universe Jedi/Force Sensitive’s are rare, then I don’t see a problem.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Mir » Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:48 am

We voted in Apr 2016, with the understanding that we would revisit it after the next Trilogy movie came out. Are we so impatient, do people want what they want when they want it how they want it, that we can't wait 11 months at this point when we've already waited 9 months? Have so many books been released in 9 months to confirm that nothing new is going to come from the books? Because if that's the case, then we really should wait until the movie comes out, if the books aren't telling us anything new.

Disney Canon is not four years old. It's a little over 1 year old. Sure they made the announcement that they were chucking old canon some time ago, but you have to start the clock when they released Force Awakens.

The lack of patience is disturbing.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Archangel » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:49 am

I got distracted while writing a post last night, but I thought I had posted it. I don't have my laptop at work, though, so let me see if I can reiterate the points generally.

On the subject of "everyone can use the Force," I think of it like Greybeards and the Dragonborn. The argument, "But why doesn't everyone use the Force if everyone can?" is the same as, "Why doesn't everyone Shout in Skyrim?" The answer is that it takes a lifetime of meditation and dedication, and if you can kill people with a sword (or a blaster), what need have you of Shouting (or the Force)? But if you can use the Force naturally, why wouldn't you? Even the Jedi spend their entire lives meditating and training, and they take to the Force naturally.

But I think that the question of sensitive vs user may not be especially relevant. And I agree with Mir that we don't need to change the number at the moment (we don't have more information than we did before.) The main issue here is the confusion the original rule caused. What we need to do now, in my opinion, is vote on how to clarify the Rule of Two. For example:

How should the limit on Force-based characters in the Exodus Galaxy rules apply?
  1. To every character with a connection to the Force, even if they don't actively use it or are limited to a single small thread or background detail.
  2. To only those characters which are significant and are being developed in one or more threads.
  3. To only those characters who actively and purposefully utilize the Force.
I also want to make sure we don't let this slide into, "But my Jedi Academy on Tython doesn't affect anyone else and I'm not currently RPing any characters there!" We need to be clear, too, that the effect on canon still applies; I think that any active Jedi (not necessarily ex-Jedi) should be disallowed because of the state of the galaxy, and active Force users should be limited to hiding their powers and/or themselves. There shouldn't be any large groups of Forcers running around, except maybe on backwater planets with primitive populations so that no one notices. No academies or broad organizations in general. Whether we need to add something to the rules to clarify that, I'm not sure.

But I don't want this to be a situation of, "Well, there was some confusion, so we'll provide an exception for a few of you and then apply the rule as-is going forward." Because the rule still isn't clear. Some people thought that it was excepted from the "Reasonableness Clause"; some people thought it only applied to major characters; some people thought it only applied to those actively using the Force and aware of it. Even if the people here now learn differently, the rule is still ambiguous, and anyone showing up later (like Halomek did) will still be confused. We ought to decide on this as a community, then amend the rules to make it clear what the rules actually are.

(My original post was better, I think, but I guess I got the point across.)

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Mir » Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:49 am

While I see the arguments for B and C, my personal choice is A.

My argument centers on the notion that side characters and background characters can become main characters. Not to ding Pryngles but he was the person that started this thread and we are here because he outed himself after I questioned him regarding Omek's stuff, but, that thread is a good example of what I'm talking about. It started because of an idea. Now, I finally started my Journey Begins thread. Mainly because I wanted to have a lot written in my word document, so that if I run into a dry spell, I can still regularly post on it. Jaina Wyn is a Force-Sensitive. She's my one of two, Jaryn Ren in the Knights of Ren being the other. But if I decide down the road that I have a great idea regarding Asha Koontiir who's a side character in general and in that thread, then if we go with B and C, I can pursue that. But then I run into an issue with having more than 2 FS characters. Pryde has posted here multiple times what his plans are for his characters. But plans change. I don't want to run into situations down the road where Pryde (as an example) changes his plans and then is brushing up against that 2 FS character limit. Because plans change. They just do.

Going with A is smarter, to me, because it creates hard, defined constraints.

Let's examine B. What is the meaning of "significant"? That's a naturally ambiguous term. Is it the number of posts the character appears in? Is it the amount of things they've done? Because the latter can be done without the former, if you try hard enough in one post. If a character is in one thread, does that mean they cannot be in another? Plans change. People decide they like writing one character more than another and want to develop that character more. Case in point: Hirai has been in both Altered Legacies and Star Wars: Homecoming. Does that now mean that development is in one or more threads? Because Star Wars: Homecoming didn't end. The thread isn't over. Neither is Altered Legacies.

Let's examine C. What is "actively" utilizing the Force? What is "purposefully" utilizing the Force? There's a difference between the two. Anakin in the podracing was actively using the Force, but didn't realize it, so he wasn't purposefully using the Force. Same with Corran Horn and flying. Because by the argument of C, we need to revisit the 2 FS Character limit now because everyone and their mother by virtue of being "lucky", and we all have characters that are surviving stuff the normal person shouldn't, could then be construed as FS.

We're creating more ambiguity that will require us to revisit this down the road. The reason why I want the hard constraint is that we're having this discussion due to ambiguity and we're having it 9 months after we agreed on the rule. We're going to be revisiting this, along with the number aspect, anyway in 11ish months. Why put more ambiguity into the situation that we're going to be revisiting anyway in about a year?
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:32 am

I outed myself to get the board to focus on me instead of Halomek. Apparently it worked...

Having said that as I've iterated before I had no idea that force sensitive even counted until Mir approached me about Tav because we've never seen force sensitive and force users as being the same before in our old canon. That is completely new... So I would have had to out myself anyway because anyone taking a second look would have found my indiscretions too and it would have been even worse if I hadn't admitted them.

But no, let's just focus entirely on the fact that I broke the rules and give zero consideration to the fact that I admitted my mistakes instead of trying to hide them...
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Mir » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:55 am

What, precisely, would a consideration to the fact that you admitted a mistake look like? Because I'd be interested in seeing how there has been "zero" consideration for it.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:11 am

There hasn't been. This whole time your position has been I'm going to deny this because Pryde did this.
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