Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Halomek » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:23 pm

I think we're losing focus here. It really doesn't matter so much what the intent of the new canon is if the community here wants to amend their own interpretation of it. In a very real sense, we stop following canon as soon as we introduce our own characters and ideas into the universe because none of what we do is officially sanctioned. From then on, it becomes a work of our fiction, with us using the new canon as a template to work off of. It's up to us to decide how we go about it. Nothing Disney says, short of ordering us to shut down the site (knock on wood), will change that.

We know there are Force-users and Force-sensitives in the new canon. There are plenty of examples, so therefore people with those gifts also exist in the new MBT. Likewise, there is no unequivocal statement in the new canon that all Force-users and Force-sensitives have been wiped out. What that means for us is that we get to decide how that works in our version of that universe.

People should be free to interpret the new canon how they like, because, frankly, waiting on official canon before deciding what to do is a losing proposition, IMO. Disney is going to ride the Star Wars gravy train for as long as they can. Anyone who thinks they're going to stop with Episode 9 is fooling themselves. There's always going to be new canon and eventually we're going to reach a point, just as we did with the Legends MBT, where our universe contradicts their universe. That's the pitfall of basing a persistent fandom universe off of a licensed property that keeps cranking out new material.

--------

Now, something I haven't seen anyone really dispute is that the new MBT Rule of Two, as it is written, was not clear in its meaning. At least three members of the community; Pryde, Arch, and myself; initially took it to mean main characters only. Since this was apparently not the intent of the rule, a case can be made that the rule was not clear when it was voted upon and should be reexamined.

We already know Pryde didn't agree with it originally. I wasn't there to vote on it, but I think it's clear I wouldn't have agreed with it either. I don't know if Arch was around at the time to vote on it, but if so, he clearly didn't understand the intent of the rule either. Also, my understanding is that this was a “take it or leave it” vote for every rule on the new MBT, so this Rule of Two may not have gotten the attention from the community it should have amidst all the excitement of creating a new board.

I don't know how Cadden interpreted the rule when he voted, but he has also agreed that the rule is unclear and should be relooked at.

My understanding is that Mir is only enforcing it because that's the law and he's a lawkeeper. So let's assume he's neutral to however things end up so long as people stop breaking the rules. Mir, please correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Nich is the only one I've seen who is hardline against changing the rule and wants to wait until December before even considering otherwise. Nich, that's how I've been interpreting your comments. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

I know we've still got a few days left on this, but currently that's a majority who at least want to take another look at this rule now. Arguing the minutiae about what the creators of the new canon intended doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere except stuck in an endless argument. I think we'd all be better off waiting to see first if anyone else has thoughts on if the rule was unclear or not and then proceeding from there.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Cadden » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:36 pm

As I've said numerous times, my interest in creating a Force user on any scale is exactly nil. It didn't start out that way, but I've made that choice since then. The rules being what they are had no weight on my decision. So when I voted, I voted for the ruleset, and not just one rule. I didn't agree with some of them, but the overall ruleset I was, at least mostly, okay with.

Believe me when I say that which direction this goes in, I truly don't care. The points in my arguments have been, strictly, that if canon does not say it (in the case of, for example, the Rogue One argument), then it isn't canon. Period. This has always been the case. We cannot say that our assumptions based on our own personal observations and conclusions, are factual, no matter what position they may be, unless it is backed by canon. That is my only stance on the matter, under the current rules as they are presented.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:42 pm

Cadden wrote:The points in my arguments have been, strictly, that if canon does not say it (in the case of, for example, the Rogue One argument), then it isn't canon. Period.
By that argument alone you prove my point. Canon hasn't said there aren't any Force users or that there are only a few yet I can't figure out for the life of me why we're pretending that it does. The only thing--ONLY thing we know is that Luke's Jedi were wiped out. That's it.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:51 pm

Hal, I have never once stated that I'm against changing the rule, or revisiting it.

I'm saying that it was discussed and voted on. It was stated that this rule would be revisited after more information came out when VIII got here, and/or some official canon book came out stating otherwise.

Claiming ignorance/unclear now like Pryde, or the fact that you weren't here personally for this...which is understandable due to RL issues, but the vote was unanimous with several more people that were active at the time than there is now. That vote included the Rule of 2 for Force User characters. Pryde voted 'for' the Proposal, I don't care that he says that he's against it now, or that he raged about it then but still voted yes. If he would have voted no, then he would have a leg to stand on, at least it would have been on record.

Then we come to the fact that all this would have took, and to have avoided this, would have been for one of you to consult the SC. But somewhere along the line Pryde decided to say 'fuck it' to the rules, and do his own thing. You Hal, well you have a plausible excuse since you weren't active at the time.

The fact remains, there is a Rule of 2. I could be a major dick about it and enforce it, as stated and voted on by the Proposal, and it would be well within my rights to do so as a Mod. But 'have I?' The answer is no.

As I stated when you all voted for me, I encourage discussion, and even 'heated' discussion...to a degree (sorry, bad pun). The majority of this discussion between me and Pryde is a matter of difference of 'opinion'. I 'am' still a active (if somewhat slow at this time) member of the forum and my viewpoints are allowed as well as everyone elses. This isn't a 'Exec vs Member' as Pryde alluded to in a prior post. The fact that myself and Cadd have colored names is a extremely moot point. We don't agree on his reasonings, and that pisses him off. Sorry Pryde you haven't presented me...I won't speak for Cadd (mainly because I don't speak at a 3rd Grade Level like he does)...with anything that would change my opinion. If that pisses you off...well...that your problem, not mine.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:57 pm

I never alluded to this being mod against member.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:05 pm

Nichalus wrote:But somewhere along the line Pryde decided to say 'fuck it' to the rules, and do his own thing.
And there you go again, painting me with the worst of intentions. It doesn't matter what I say you all are going to think the worst of me so forget it. Hal, Arch if you guys want to keep fighting this be my guest. Unfortunately the only thing my participation in this discussion has accomplished is to compromise your position so I'm out.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Cadden » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:08 pm

Nichalus wrote:I won't speak for Cadd (mainly because I don't speak at a 3rd Grade Level like he does)...
Ouch.

Though, it begs the question. Third grade. Do you even remember that far back? That's, like, what... three, four hundred years ago?
Pryde wrote:By that argument alone you prove my point. Canon hasn't said there aren't any Force users or that there are only a few yet I can't figure out for the life of me why we're pretending that it does. The only thing--ONLY thing we know is that Luke's Jedi were wiped out. That's it.
Perhaps. I'm not going to go about looking it up, now, but I thought I read somewhere that Luke's Jedi were the only ones around. I could be mistaken, though. And that all of them were wiped out (save, of course, him). But, the latter comes from Wook, and I'll need to look at the possible source material on that one, which I do happen to have, before I can say if it's fact or not. It might have been mere conjecture I read, though, basing it off the fact that VII is basically IV all over again, and so the formula fits. I'll look more into it later, if I remember.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:20 pm

I would point out that Disney execs have gone on record saying the Jedi don't hold a monopoly on the Force but then that would just be dismissed as conjecture...
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Mir » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:51 am

So I haven't been checking this because Mir was on #4thDate with the Girl. Chicago's Beercades are great and since she doesn't really drink, 6 hours translated into 2 beers. I know, I know, if she doesn't drink how is she going to overlook Mir's face? Mir is currently strategizing.

Anyway, I want to clear a few things up:

"I mean you're trolling everyone's threads anyway looking for rule breakers so the minute Halo puts Tulsar and his family in another galaxy spanning story you'll know and you can call him out on it."

I don't troll people's threads. I'm far too busy. If I trolled people's threads, don't you two think I would have found this out sooner?

Case in point, I didn't find this out by trolling any threads. I started reading the Altered Legacies thread when it was first started. I saw that Omek-san introduced Tulsar and Falanis and Kalja. Now, he hasn't made new wikis for any of them. But from what I remember, Falanis died fairly early on. I'm not suggesting that Omek was going to follow this exact same story. But at the time, I figured that Falanis was not FS, unlike the old MBT counterpart and that Tulsar and Kalja would be. See: Main characters and side characters. So I carried on with life. Then a few days ago, I saw that Halomek had edited Tav Garvin's wiki page. I saw that he put that New Tav was FS. This is when I wanted to make sure everything was good. So I reached out to Pryde via FB. Part of my reasoning was a bit flawed. For some reason I thought Pryde was still also a SC. The other part of the reasoning (not flawed. Flawless like Beyonce) was that Pryde was IN the Altered Legacies thread so he'd better know the current FS makeup of the characters in the thread. Also, he's better friends with Omek than I am, so he'd probably know Omek's future plans already. Finally, since he and I had had a conversation about FS characters some months ago, and Pryde had Enriler join his thread then to solve whatever issue there was, Pryde would know what's up.

In response you, Pryde, created this thread, because of Hirai. As you correctly have stated, you were outing yourself, I didn't know about that. So saying that I troll threads, not sure what you mean by that.

But the point still remains that side characters can become main characters. Since I'm not trolling threads, I'm not going to see until down the road. Which is where that statute of limitations defense doesn't/shouldn't work.

Moving to Halomek:
"My understanding is that Mir is only enforcing it because that's the law and he's a lawkeeper. So let's assume he's neutral to however things end up so long as people stop breaking the rules. Mir, please correct me if I'm wrong on that."

Yes and no. I'm neutral to however things end up, but if we are going to change things, I want the changes made for the right reasons, not just because we want to. Otherwise there's no reason for me to enforce any rule because if when people break the rules (intentionally or unintentionally), we're going to change them regardless of the statute of limitations thing, then that defeats half of my role as the SC. Here, I don't see the reasoning behind not waiting. Just my opinion. But ultimately, I only have 1 vote.

P.S. Totes just realized that since the "mek" is your initials, Omek is kinda like "Oh MEK!" Which cues in Arch's love of high fantasy bards and songs/psalmists. Which I may be projecting, but I'm okay with that.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Cadden » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:58 am

That's a bit different, Pryde. Thre are several instances in established canon that support these statements. We have Jedi, Sith, Inquisitors, Nightsisters, Nightbrothers (if that's still the name being used), the Dagoyan Order, and others. But we don't have anywhere in canon that says Jyn and Chirrut could use the Force, or were sensitive to it (if we want to call those distinguishing terms, now). Or Han, or Chewie, or Lando, or Poe, or.....

Also, the opening crawl in VII explicitly says Luke is the last Jedi. And while you could argue that Yoda made the same declaration in RotJ, we need to make the distinction that this was a character's understanding vs a narrative declaration. Now, Luke is obviously not the last known Force user, because Leia is still alive and we've had two confirmed instances of her using the Force (one subconsciously and one consciously) in the OT. And she could feel Han's death, as well. So we know they didn't eradicate all known Force-sensitives, because Leia was a known Force-sensitive and was left relatively alone.

However, our only known way of measuring how well someone can use the Force, at least in the new Canon, is by way of the Jedi Order. We already know, from canonical evidence, there's more than just the Jedi out there. But we've yet to see the same evidence in canon that everyone can use the Force. (Once again, I find that an unusual statement to make when, in VII, we have the dialog between Finn and Han that seems to indicate otherwise.) If it shows up in canon, then it turns to fact. Yeah, the creative team may be saying it, but how many times do people stick with their original ideas when creating something? Star Wars would be a very different thing if GL stuck to his original ideas for it.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:37 am

That's where you're wrong. We have Obi-Wan and Yoda both saying that the Force exists in ALL living things and then Qui-gon explaining that midichlorians are what connect us to the Force and where do they exist? In ALL living things. ALL living things have a connection to the Force through midichlorians, the evidence to support the idea that anyone can use the Force is there already and the fact that the Force is referred to as an ancient "religion" by Han Solo himself is further evidence of such. Dave Filoni said when thinking about stories in the Star Wars universe they think about it in terms of the real world. In the real world the Force would be God, Muhammad, Budda or whoever else you might pray to. Even the phrase, "May the Force be with you," originated from the phrase, "The Lord be with you," from Christianity. There are many people out there who believe that by praying to Christ good things will happen. It's no different from the Force, hell Chirrut is the literal embodiment of that. He prayed to the Force and something good happened--up until he was shot and killed... >.> You seem to be making the mistake that by claiming Jyn and Chirrut used the Force I am saying they did so knowingly and I'm not. The point is anyone could be using the Force at any time and have NO IDEA they're even doing it. All they have to do is believe and in some cases the Force may even lend a hand if someone doesn't believe, such as Han Solo.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:43 am

Also, I find it highly amusing that Finn and Han are now the authorities on the Force over Lucasfilm's Chief Executives. Two characters that know absolutely nothing about the Force and one of whom didn't even believe in it thirty years ago.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:47 am

Lastly in 1981 George Lucas said anyone could use the Force. Then in 2015 and 2016 two other top officials are also saying anyone can use the Force. So in THIRTY years that hasn't changed. What evidence is there to support the idea that it will? Are you all sitting in on the meetings and I just don't know it?
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:49 am

And we STILL haven't addressed half of Halomek's concerns or those of Arch.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:02 am

The rub of this issue is:

Pryde thinks that statements made by people, whether Disney Producers or Story Writers PRIOR to actual film, books and animation should be taken as FACT. You can't say that you're not saying that Pryde, since your whole argument is based on word that is not in film or books. You MAY be right, for all anyone knows. BUT...you can't prove it positively until it happens.

And now your comparing fictional/actors word on film, with Executive Producer's, writers in RL. This is going Twlight Zone quickly.

Myself, Cadd and Mir believe that any talk outside of what we can see on film or TV series, read in book, is just conjecture and opinion. Once it is in one of those formats, then it is canon. Not BEFORE then, but AFTER.

Yes, by having members write Force Users to a limit, we are assuming there are more. The rub is we have no idea how many. We KNOW there are very few from what we've seen and read by now.

Pre-Disney, Force Users were EVERYWHERE, now they are few and far between...so far.

This we ALL discussed and determined that from what we currently know, we agreed that there are some scattered around the universe, and because people wanted to write Jedi/Force Users that we would limit them 'for the time being' until it becomes more clear.

AGAIN...this is the reason we created the new forum, to be more with canon NOW.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Halomek » Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:05 pm

To be honest, I prefer the old style of thinking in that some people are Force-sensitive and some are not, but the latest episode of Rebels (Trials of the Darksaber) would seem to align with what Pryde has been saying. In it, Kanan is training Sabine how to use the Darksaber. For those who don't watch the show, Sabine is a Mandalorian who has never shown any kind of connection to the Force, but then there's this exchange between Hera and Kanan about Sabine's training:

Hera: “...or maybe because she doesn't have the Force, you don't believe she can do this?”

Kanan: “No. The Force resides within all living things, but you have to be open to it. Sabine is... blocked. Her mind is conflicted. She's so expressive, yet so tightly wound. So-”

Hera: “Mandalorian.”

Kanan: “Very.”

That a pretty strong indication that anyone can use the Force, it's just that some people are more open to it than others. Couple that with everything Pryde has been linking from the people who have creative control of the franchise and it looks less like conjecture and more like that it's their intent for the future of the franchise.

Later in the same episode, once Sabine has begun to open up, there's this exchange:

Sabine: “The blade feels lighter.”

Kanan: “You're connecting with it. It's becoming a part of you.”

One might say that it's the Darksaber itself that is special, but there's never been any indication that it's ever had an ability to bond with its wielder. Kanan's words and reactions indicate that bonding with a weapon is something to be expected of anyone using the Force.

By the end of the episode, Sabine has displayed some impressive skills with the Darksaber, even anticipating attacks. She doesn't display any super obvious Force powers, but keep in mind that this is the start of an arc for her and nothing in the episode even remotely hinted that Kanan was wrong about anybody being able to connect to the Force.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:06 pm

All valid points Hal...but...Rebels is set 2 to 3 years(?) prior to the Original Trilogy. In the post RotJ world, things have obviously changed drastically. So much so, that no one even knew that Darth Vader was Leia and Luke's father, and that the Jedi were more myth and legend than anything. It was years after the New Republic was formed and Leia was First Senator, and Ben was already being trained by Luke at the Academy when the public found out the connection to Vader, which is detailed in the Bloodline book. It would be years after this that Ben would attack and kill the students at the Academy. We don't know if he killed them all, how many were actually there before the slaughter, if any survived, etc...at this time. I have a strong suspicion that we will find out alot more details on this in VIII.

Jedi and Force Users are so obscure that even Finn and Rey both were amazed when Solo told them that all the legends and myths were true. I mean, even Rey who is obviously rich with the Force, thought that it was all myth and legend. Her powers with the Force were either inhibited, repressed by someone powerful in the Force (which I think is the most likely, but we'll wait and see), or something else all together. One could assume that the Jedi Academy was 'very' ultra-secret. Since Rey nor Finn knew nothing about the massacre there. Through the movie and books, it appears that a very select few knew about the massacre other than Han, Leia and Luke.

The Knights of Renn are still another question mark, are they all Force Users? Or some? One of them looks to have been wearing Mandalorian armor and helm from some of the screen grabs. Again, there is no definitive proof of either they are all FUs, or mix.

Like I've been saying, I believe that we should make Force Users just as obscure as the current official books are making them out to be, and thus why the limitation for the time being.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:32 pm

And the line from Maz Kanata? "Close your eyes, feel it. The light, it's always been there." Or the one from Kylo? "At night, desperate to sleep, you dream of an ocean. I see it, I see the island," which also happens to be the island at the end of the movie. Rey's powers weren't repressed she just had no idea what they were.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Halomek » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:57 pm

Also keep in mind the context here...

Finn was a brainwashed stormtrooper, trained in isolation in First Order territory. He didn't even have a name at first.

Rey was an orphan living on a remote desert planet who chose to live on the outskirts of the city.

I wouldn't count on either of those characters having a reliable viewpoint of the galaxy at large. Just because the movie focused on them, it doesn't mean they know what's going on. Really, the most reliable character viewpoint would be Maz Kanata's.

It's kind of moot though. Regardless of what Finn or Rey think, it wouldn't change the fact that all characters have the potential to use the Force in the new canon. There's nothing to indicate that the rise of the First Order would have changed that from what's been stated in Rebels. It would be conjecture to say otherwise as there's more and more evidence that the Force is still at large in the universe and capable of being used by all living things.

Now that could mean that some are more easily attuned to it, and perhaps have a greater potential to use it, but regardless that spark is within every character. Unless you're a droid. :p

A quick side note: I would also say that Snoke and the Knights of Ren are force-users. It's stated in Wook that they are and there's no evidence that says they aren't.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Archangel » Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:39 pm

Chirrut was a low-level Force user by word-of-God ("Force user" was how the role was described to Donnie Yen, according to interviews). He's also not a Force user by word-of-God (Star Wars Databank). Frankly, I find those two sources roughly even in canon, so which is correct is up for lengthy debate. (I say "yea," because of film evidence.)

Having said that, like I said before, I have a fairly low opinion of declarations by producers and executives (and Databank writers), because there isn't one person in complete control of the canon (although if there were, Pablo Hidalgo would probably be it), and so until something is actually released, I can't rely 100% on its veracity. In that, I agree with Cadden, et al. (Although things being the way they are in Rebels, according to Hal, suggests that this is less conjecture than it appeared earlier in the thread. And political changes have no effect on how the Force works.)

Besides, the "anyone can use the Force" interpretation seems to me the intention in "A New Hope," where being a Jedi was more a matter of religious/monastic rigor than a lucky one-in-a-million shot. Also at the same time, I'd be willing to believe that some people are predisposed to be better at using the Force, just as some people have natural talents for playing the guitar or giving speeches (or living ascetically, for the monastic angle), and we might call these talented folks "Force sensitive," because they're more sensitive than normal to the Force.

But yeah, I think it would be easier if we only started talking about a character's Force sensitivity when they start using the Force intentionally. Before that, it's either (1) a matter of will, or (2) basically random chance. So Hirai can be naturally talented with the Force, but we don't say she's "Force sensitive" because she's not trying to use "powers."

More than anything, though, I think the rule deserves clarification. Maybe we don't have enough to overthrow (so to speak) the "wait for Ep. 8" clause, but certainly there were enough of us that misunderstood the nuance of the rule that we need to clarify whether it counts main characters or all characters. And I think that should be a decision of the board, not a decision of the moderators/story coordinator. Should we have asked for clarification first? Maybe, but it seemed such a no-brainer to me that it only applied to main/developed characters that it never occurred to me to ask. I mean, how do you train a Forcer without another Forcer? And then you're all out of Forcers, trapped in one training thread for the next two years (or more, if you write as slowly as I do). That's not a sensible application of the rule, in my opinion, especially if the trainer is a limited-use NPC with little focus.

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:20 pm

Honestly, I've moved past the Hirai/Jess thing. I was prepared to have to drop Jess from the moment this started. All I really want is clarification that NPC characters (in this case the Leidias') do not count towards the limit so Hal and I can continue our thread.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:46 pm

Since I am a man of compromise, I will throw this out there and the other Mod/Admins and the SC can approve or disapprove if they wish.

I'm willing to allow this 'one time' break in the rule, and I will hold you to what you just said above, that these characters are NPCs. If at a later date it is decided that more Force Users are allowed to members, then they may become you normal characters of course...but NOT until such time. This is also NOT Carte Blanche to create an entire society or large family of Force Users, Jedi Councils, Clans of Force Users, etc...This pertains ONLY to what you have already done, and there will be NO additional creations of such characters...NPCs or Otherwise.

Should their involvement grow in a manner that appears that they are no longer said NPCs, then we will enforce the Rule of 2 and you will be asked to either retconn the story, or remove the characters in question that are above the allowed amount...at this time. If these 'NPCs' step outside the thread that they are in by even so much as a pinky toe, this will null and void this agreement.

Who decides if they grow beyond being NPCs? That will entail a discussion between the Mod/Admin/SC team

If OFFICIAL canon is seen in film, book or TV that would allow more Jedi, then we will have a discussion at that time. By OFFICIAL that will mean something that is in a SW Movie, TV and Book. Interviews with with Disney Executives, Directors, Actor, etc.. will NOT count as Official SW Canon. Personal opinion is NOT Official Canon, and will NOT be allowed to sway the rules in any fashion.

In other words, and to make sure this is a clear as possible...If it isn't in a Official Movie, Book and TV show, then it is NOT fact. It won't matter if a director, actor, executive, or stated by God himself if he came down to Earth, etc...states such in a interview PRIOR to the release of said Movie, Book or TV show.

In addition, the Final Proposal will be amended to state that there is NO distinction between a Force User and a Force Sensitive, they are ONE AND THE SAME, as defined by the Wookieepedia HERE. Pryde and Hal's 'extra' NPCs will be held as exempt to the Rule of 2, and there will be no further violation of that rule until such time as we have factual and 'official' release to do so.

This is the compromise. The other Mod, the SC and Admins can Yay or Nay this at their whim, and/or modify anything that they wish to add. So this isn't etched in stone yet. I am putting it out there now so everyone can see what I am aiming at.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Halomek » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:26 pm

First off, I appreciate the compromise you're offering, Nich. Thank you. Of course I'd like to see things a little more open still, but I'll certainly try to meet you halfway on this and wait until December to see what's in the new movie. I'll also repeat my promise that none of the Leidiases in my thread will become main characters.

However, while this is on the table, I would only ask for one thing to be added to this compromise. I'd like to see an exception made for Force-using antagonist NPCs. Regardless of the status of “good” Force-users, it's pretty clear that trained Darksiders outnumber the one Jedi left in the galaxy. Luke may have stopped training Jedi, but there's certainly no motivation for Snoke to stop adding members to the Knights of Ren.

This fits in line with the new canon as we have sources saying both Snoke and the Knights of Ren are Darksiders.

To be clear, my thought on this isn't that it gives a member an extra Force-user character designated solely for evil. We'd still basically be restricted to two, so for example if someone wanted a Knight of Ren as a main character, then they'd only be able to have one other Force-user character that they could write for. But, if they bring in a Darksider to serve as a foil to the other characters and the intention is to either have that character die by the end of the thread or be an NPC, then that would be acceptable.

If this means that Darksider NPCs must always be part of the Knights of Ren for now then I'm fine with that too. Whatever works.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:02 am

Actually there are no sources that say that the Knights of Ren are Force Users. The Wook only says "The Knights of Ren was a dark side organization that operated under the command of Snoke..." Yes, they were a part of the organization, but not definitively Force Users. The lone picture that everyone has seen shows the KoR with staffs and guns, not a single one with a lightsaber. Dark side organization does not mean 'everyone' is a Force User, it could just mean that the organization is run by a dark sider, namely Snoke.

It goes on further by stating "The Knights of Ren operated in the decades following the Galactic Civil War. They were under the command of Supreme Leader Snoke, who used them as a tool of the dark side of the Force..."
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:23 am

Are we going to amend our source material to books movies, comics and Wook, then? Seriously, I can't quote the director of Rebels as a source but everyone seems fine with open source Wikipedia sites...
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Nichalus » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:55 am

Pryde, you need to take a 'very' large step back. Your smartass comments and remarks are wearing 'very' thin. I have offered a serious and quite fair compromise that benefits everyone here.

If you have nothing more constructive to add to this discussion, then my advice is to let those of us that are discussing this respectfully, continue to do so without your detrimental comments. If you continue to do so, then a warning will be issued.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Jagtai » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:50 am

As far as I am concerned, this discussion is moot. A "Force-sensitive" has always been someone who was using the force without being aware - essentially, luck - whereas a "Force-user" was someone who was actively using the Force.

I understood to rule to apply only to "Force-users", that is anyone actively using the Force. It was never intended to include "Force-sensitives" as well.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Cadden » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:43 am

Wookieepedia admins are notorious for ensuring their content is in line with official canon source material, Pryde. And, yes, they are not omnipresent and they cannot catch everything, but their contributors largely follow this principle.

I do believe the Knights of Ren bit is actually validated in the VII Visual Guide or whatever, though. I'll look at it and follow up, if so.

This compromise works with me, as well. My biggest concern in this whole cluster, tbh, is the lack of clarity. So anything to provide clarity is good by me, whether it "helps" or "hurts" in the long run. Take that how you will, but my thoughts on this are simple: if I have to abide by the rules and cannot take over the Mandalorians, then for better or worse I'd expect someone else to abide by the rules and follow limits set in place for Force users. (The notable difference, here, being that that rule requires clarification.) If we start allowing double standards, no matter the individual's intent, then, really, the only rule we should have is the same from the "Legends" MBT. :raisedbrow:
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Mir » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:46 am

Cadden wrote:If we start allowing double standards, no matter the individual's intent, then, really, the only rule we should have is the same from the "Legends" MBT. :raisedbrow:
Succinctly sums up my thoughts on this matter. We agreed to wait until a certain date, so we wait. Otherwise, I will unintentionally take control of the galactic senate with a character that looks like Bill Belichick wearing a black hoodie. He will be Darth BB.

Pryde, read the compromise and note the parts where it includes the words "book", "TV". Also re read the original rule and notice how it has multiple sources of information changing the scope of the rule. I get that you're not happy, but your responses to not being happy are starting to get trying.

My only suggestion is that we put in a hard time that the first readjustment happens after VIII comes out, so there's no more confusion Googlez says that it comes out December 15, 2017. I think we should state, clearly, that we'll re-examine the situation starting January 1, 2018. This gives everyone a two week window to see the movie, while also spending time with their weird Uncle Kevin. That name was chosen randomly, I swear.

As Cadden wants clarity of definition, I want clarity in purpose. The rule isn't designed to cramp people's style, it's designed to keep us inline with the new canon. However, as Omek and Pryngles have argued, we change canon to fit what we want. So, I think that after VIII comes out, since it's the first possible clarifying prescription change to what we know about this new canon, we'll make our potential readjustment. But no matter the outcome, I think every 6 months or so after that, if a member so desires or feels that there's cause for change, they can privately message the Mods/SC and talk about it. This way, new books or tv episodes have the ability to change things on a more timely basis as opposed to once every two years when IX comes out.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Mir » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:48 am

Also, I totes restored Jessica Sterling. Shined her up nice. Play on Sterling. I'm a genius.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:48 am

Mir wrote:Also, I totes restored Jessica Sterling. Shined her up nice. Play on Sterling. I'm a genius.
I hope everyone is aware that Hirai is not an NPC. I only said my intentions for her were that she was not supposed to become a Force User. For the story I only need for her to have the ability to make the swords she carries. If that means she is still a Force user then having her and Jess violates the rule.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Cadden » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:00 am

FYI, the VII Visual Dictionary only references the Knights of Ren in passing, and, as far as I know, I don't have anything else that talks of them, so I cannot personally confirm or deny the presence of non Force users in their ranks. But, I wouldn't put it beyond the scope of possibility, either. However, of course, without something in canon, I can only speculate.

There's my follow-up, as promised.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:14 am

Cadden wrote:FYI, the VII Visual Dictionary only references the Knights of Ren in passing, and, as far as I know, I don't have anything else that talks of them, so I cannot personally confirm or deny the presence of non Force users in their ranks. But, I wouldn't put it beyond the scope of possibility, either. However, of course, without something in canon, I can only speculate.

There's my follow-up, as promised.
I have spent hours running Google search after Google search trying to find an official canon source to corroborate the Force User=Force Sensitive sentiment and the only link I've managed to turn up that definitively defines these two terms is the one from Wookieepedia. Obviously, I don't have any of the books so I can't say for sure that there isn't any canon resources to corroborate but if that's the case then I find it a little disconcerting that no one has mentioned it or the only place that I can find it is on Wookieepedia itself. So for me the idea that Wookieepedia might be considered canon source material is a legitimate concern. If we can't corroborate something Wookieepedia says with a movie, book, television series or comic then how can we know for sure that it's accurate?
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Cadden » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:55 am

Well, and that's the problem, really. Wookieepedia does state, "Though only certain individuals were Force-sensitive, the Force resided within all living things and could be extracted." (Source)

It references the Clone Wars episode The Disappeared, Part I in this sentence. While I am all for hunting down canon information on the subject matter... I'm really not in the mood to watch an entire Clone Wars episode just to validate a single sentence. Someone else can, if they want, however. Whether the entire sentence is supported in the episode, or the reference is specifically pointing to the "and could be extracted" bit (based on the episode synopsis on Wookieepedia), I do not know. But that's the only thing that might back up both claims on that side.

What they ultimately say in canon, I'm cool with. Though, like Halo, I don't much care for this whole "everyone can use the Force if they really try" bit (if I interpreted his statement correctly). But that's not for me to decide, if they decide to put that in canon as a fact.

They do seem to be leaning in that direction, in canon, yes, but we have statements that seem to contradict each other throughout the lore, so far, so it's hard to really tell if they're just using heavy points-of-view or if they don't want to come out and say it outright, or what.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Jagtai » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:18 pm

Be that as it may, the Rule of Two was designed to prevent large numbers of powerful Forcers, not people with a bit of luck/Force-sensitivity.

You are looking at the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of it.

If the Rule of Two is really so confusing, maybe we should rehash it.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Pryde » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:23 pm

Cadden wrote:Well, and that's the problem, really. Wookieepedia does state, "Though only certain individuals were Force-sensitive, the Force resided within all living things and could be extracted." (Source)

It references the Clone Wars episode The Disappeared, Part I in this sentence. While I am all for hunting down canon information on the subject matter... I'm really not in the mood to watch an entire Clone Wars episode just to validate a single sentence. Someone else can, if they want, however.
I'm willing, but that's mostly because I was planning on watching the whole series anyway. I think they're still on Netflix... I hope. >.>
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Cadden » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:50 pm

It was last I looked, which was just a couple days ago. (Kids are more into it than we are.)
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Mir » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:15 pm

Jagtai wrote:Be that as it may, the Rule of Two was designed to prevent large numbers of powerful Forcers, not people with a bit of luck/Force-sensitivity.

You are looking at the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of it.

If the Rule of Two is really so confusing, maybe we should rehash it.
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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Archangel » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:35 am

As I said before, to me, the intent of the rule was obvious: to prevent a surplus of powerful Force users. Therefore, (1) "Force-sensitives" and very weak Force users shouldn't count against the rule, and (2) limited-effect characters (NPCs restricted to one thread with no effect on the galaxy at-large) shouldn't count against the rule.

That was the way we talked about the rule in discussion threads, and that was what I was agreeing to. But maybe I can back this up with the rest of the rules/canon.

The rule, as stated, doesn't disallow that interpretation, because of the "Reasonableness Clause." That alone gives me carte blanche to create more than 2 Force users, provided they never affect the galaxy at-large or change things drastically in relation to canon. (Unless you want to vote to change the rules so that the "Rule of Two" isn't included in the umbrella effect of the "Reasonableness Clause," but I don't see anything in the rules about changing that rule.)

The Reasonableness Clause, of course, can't allow Jedi Masters (or even Jedi at all, really), because that would change the state of the galaxy in relation to canon. But I could have 50 weak Force witches for a character to fight, because nobody cares. It would have no effect on the state of the galaxy and no impact on others' storylines. The Reasonableness Clause is met.

Also, I'm looking into the synonymous claim for "Force-user" and "Force-sensitive," and I can't find much. The canon article is what indicates this with its opening sentence, equating the two terms, but it offers no references. The Legends article says that they're different terms. It seems obvious to me that someone was copy-pasting parts of the Legends article to edit for the canon article and saw that the Legends article used "Forceful" in that first sentence, which isn't a canon term, so they just changed that to "Force-user" to justify why "Force-user" links to the same article. It has no canon source linked or mentioned; it's just the Wook editors filling in info. Is there another source I'm missing?

Whether everyone can use the Force through monastic rigor or only those attuned to it because bacteria, we obviously can't include people who don't actively use the Force in the Rule of Two.

So can someone elucidate for me why the Rule of Two should include both (1) people who don't use the Force even though they maybe can and (2) people that don't matter?

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Re: Exodus Galaxy Force User Rule

Post by Mir » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:37 am

I would point out, Archie, the paragraph right after the one you were directly referring to. On a sensitive subject such as this, as this is the only thing in the rules that is limited to an enumerated amount, I would hope that people would come to the SC about it, as indicated. I'm not an unreasonable person. If more than a few people are coming to me with the same interpretation of something then I'm not going to outright deny it, I'm willing to see how/where I could be wrong.
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I guess it comes down to each person's interpretation then, of what might possibly cause an issue.
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