Toughening up

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Toughening up

Post by Jagtai »

So far, the administration (mods and admins) have been too lenient with troublemakers. So, effective immediately, we'll be toughening up on troublemakers.

The rules are simple:
Do not fight the staff or administration; their rule is law. It is their job to keep the wiki civil and running smoothly. Making public complaints regarding any administrative, enforcement, or other Moderator/Admin will not be tolerated. If you've have an issue, please private message (PM) a Moderator or Administrator.
This will now be enforced. Baiters, trollers, and other troublemakers will be served verbal and then actual warnings; no exceptions. Three warnings within a 90-day period will result in a one week ban, then a one month ban. Repeated offences will be punished with permabans.

To ease people into this, we've come up with some do's and don't's, so you have fair warning.

Do's:
Discussing an administrative action objectively, including asking for reasons
Discussing things in a peaceable manner

Don't's:
Arguing that an administrative action should be reversed (which will not happen)
Arguing that the administrative officer in question is stupid/incompetent/etc.
Trolling and all that

If you want to be angry with someone, be angry at me. This is ultimately an executive decision, though I have of course consulted with the Mods.

You may discuss this action to your hearts content in this thread, though the above rules still apply (the discussion of this falls under the do's).

-Jag
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Mir »

1. Define Trolling, Balsa style please.

2. In regards to arguing that a decision should be reversed, doesn't that kind of not make sense? I'm pretty sure that some decisions have gotten reversed in the past because of people arguing their case. Just saying.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Jagtai »

1. Anyone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking others into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

2. You are right, but from now on, administrative decisions are final.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Mir »

I'm going to assume that this pertains to on board. You can still discuss/argue/whatever you want to call it with a mod/admin via MSN, PM, and the such.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Balsa »

No because the forum software emails the admins your passwords and also installs a monitoring service, so the mods and admins routinely follow your IM chats.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Mir »

lol. Also, I have interesting love hate relationships with the majority of the people here. So when I say I hate you or such similar comments to Pryde, Halomek, Balsa, you Jag, Hal....um...everybody....particularly Cazzik, I don't actually mean it nor am I trying to instigate off topic discussion based around provoking others. Just saying.

Oh and Jag. I hate you.

And Balsa, the password I had a few days ago about asians and cats, don't take it personal? :mrgreen:


Seriously though, as long as the mods and admins don't get all defensive about everything and minor cursing then I give it my stamp of non-needed approval.

:bothan:
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Nichalus »

About damn time. *smirk*
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Re: Toughening up

Post by SmokeMare »

It might help to contextualise this information if you could link us to the posting which brought this post on?
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Balsa »

Mirrodin2nd wrote:And Balsa, the password I had a few days ago about asians and cats, don't take it personal?
No offense taken. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to check on my dinner. Overcooked cat tastes disgusting. ;)

Incidentally, on various forums he admins, my brother has written scripts that'll email him users' passwords/login information, so I know it's possible to do. :lol:
SmokeMare wrote:It might help to contextualise this information if you could link us to the posting which brought this post on?
I think the context is pretty much all the arguments we've had of late.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Nichalus »

I'm sure, once everyone reads Jag's decree, that there will be 'some' who will want to argue.

I would like to point out, that there has ALWAYS been a way to argue, or discuss heatedly, a ruling of the Mods or Admins. That is through PMs.

There is NO board that I have ever been a part of that allows members to publically demand, argue, or question a Mod decision openly...whether a public or privately owned board.

Personally, those that like to openly criticize a Moderator merely likes to 'look' like a 'rebel against the system' type. Which only leads to make a forum look like a frenzied jungle to those that were looking to join. I mean...really....if I'm a potential new member looking in, and I see members openly critizing a Moderator and nothing is done or said to punish them from doing so...I'm moving on to the next site.

As I said, people DO have a way to criticize, or argue with the Admins and Mods and that is privately.

The alternative is....find somewhere else. But if your looking for a site that allows it, you will be sorely disappointed.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by CEO Raith Sienar »

As Nich said if there's a disagreement on something take it to PM's and be civil about it. Seek there input let them give there side in private and feel free to discuss it without calling them idiots. If you remember on the Galaxies Boards people would get the hammer dropped on them immediatly if we questioned mods decisions. Here we are a member run forum and have to respect the fact that our mods and administration are also members and should be treated with respect. We put the moderators in there positions through a vote and we have the means in place to make the changes if so needed.

Just treat them how you'd want to be treated you approach a moderator throw them on the defensive damn straight they will come off very cold and any arguement you have no matter how valid your arguement is will be ignored.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by SmokeMare »

Balsa wrote:
I think the context is pretty much all the arguments we've had of late.
Wow, what a fantastic solution... Instead of talking about the problems in our community and addressing them head on - let's have a total lock-down and stifle any debate...

Brilliant!

*Edit: I realise this may be misplaced sarcasm, but sometimes questioning things in public is more appropriate as long as it is done in a civil and fair way. I don't like this suggestion that everything should be closed door.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Nichalus »

SmokeMare wrote:
Balsa wrote:
I think the context is pretty much all the arguments we've had of late.
Wow, what a fantastic solution... Instead of talking about the problems in our community and addressing them head on - let's have a total lock-down and stifle any debate...

Brilliant!

*Edit: I realise this may be misplaced sarcasm, but sometimes questioning things in public is more appropriate as long as it is done in a civil and fair way. I don't like this suggestion that everything should be closed door.
Smoke, they didn't say an action can't be 'discussed' or it can't be 'debated'...it just has to be done in a 'civil manner'.

Let's not blow this out of proportion please.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Cadden »

Yeah, but... Nich... the Rebels won....

Also, Mir, everyone hates Jag. ;)

Yeah, someone's bound to argue over this. Yeah, it's something that's long overdue for clarification (I've been a proponent of such since the rule was first decreed). But... like Nich said... it's about time.

Finally, last but certainly not least... Smoke, we've already addressed the problems head-on. Several times, over the span of the boards. It's a constant cycle. As Einstein once said, "Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them." If the board cannot move to handle its issues by default, then yeah, this is a fantastic solution. *Shrugs* You can like it or not, but it's there, and apparently it's needed, because nothing else is working.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by SmokeMare »

Yes, I suppose I'm just concerned that thread like this can stifle debate.

Personally I think we need some improvements to this community - not sure what they are. I do know re-electing mods and admins is NOT the solution. We've tried that in the past and it didn't work. I suppose the next thing I would advocate trying is more transparency and open-ness.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Nichalus »

SmokeMare wrote:Yes, I suppose I'm just concerned that thread like this can stifle debate.

Personally I think we need some improvements to this community - not sure what they are. I do know re-electing mods and admins is NOT the solution. We've tried that in the past and it didn't work. I suppose the next thing I would advocate trying is more transparency and open-ness.
LOL...if it's one thing that this board does NOT lack is 'open-ness'. :mrgreen:

Personally, I believe that has been a HUGE problem. Certain people believe that they have a right to their particular brand of open-ness, and it is that kind of open-ness that devolves into huge flame wars, hurt feelings and people leaving the forum because of it.

I'm all for people being themselves...arguementative, blunt honesty, etc, etc,. But when that person's openness causes a detriment, or casts a bad light on the forum as a whole....then it should be stopped by the representatives that WE, as the members, put in that position to enforce the rules that WE all voted on.

As I just recently told someone on IMs, if the Admin and Mods 'truly' become dictators and stifle everyone's right to discuss 'civilly' an action, then they will be ruling over an empty forum, where they will be the dictators of .....nothing.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Jagtai »

Smokemare, if you look at the decree, the Do's are: "Discussing an administrative action objectively, including asking for reasons". So members can debate all they want, but they can't be jerks about it.

This is not an attempt to become dictators, it is an attempt to make this place somewhere where new members want to join, and where old members will want to return to. The only ones who will feel a change are the ones who have been getting away with pretty much anything; they will hate the enforcement of the rules. Everyone else, probably not.

Besides, aren't we debating right now? ;)
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Jagtai »

Cadden wrote:Also, Mir, everyone hates Jag. ;)
I'm glad you have something you can all agree on :raisedbrow: :oldrazz:
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Re: Toughening up

Post by PrincessTabetha/BlackHunt »

Not EVERYONE hates Jag. I don't.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Cadden »

It's okay, Tab, you don't have to pretend to be nice to him. :P

Okay, I'll stop now. Got a post I need to figure out.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by PrincessTabetha/BlackHunt »

Cadden wrote:It's okay, Tab, you don't have to pretend to be nice to him. :P

Okay, I'll stop now. Got a post I need to figure out.

Hey now Jag's an ok guy.

Get cadden's super weapon Kira turned into a super water gun shoots cadden with it.

Now that is what I call a super soaker. :oldrazz:

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Re: Toughening up

Post by Jagtai »

Thank you, Tab. You warm an old man's heart :)
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Balsa »

SmokeMare wrote:Personally I think we need some improvements to this community - not sure what they are.
I know what the improvements are: Everyone needs to grow the hell up, and stop perpetuating the nerd-raging, pimple-faced Star Wars/Star Trek fan-geek that lives in his parents' basement. As soon as people realize that we are arguing about Star Wars, Star Wars fandom of all things, and realize how ridiculous that sounds to any mature adult, then we will be in a better place. Yes, I'm aware that most everyone here is an adult, and most everyone here has a career and/or family, and that is my point entirely. We need to stop acting like little kids fighting over some Legos. We need to act like the grown-ups we are.

If people feel I'm being overly harsh, I'll gladly explain every single argument we've had, and how it's basically someone arguing about some Star Wars-related fanfiction project, and how his or her ego is being bruised because someone else has the gall to mess up his or her fanfic project.

It's quite embarrassing, to say the least. Try explaining our problems to any outsider, and I guarantee you will be very hesitant and fearful that you've just made an absolute fool of yourself.

And how do I know that this can work? Because, as the SE FC, I have seen it work. All the Sith players are mature adults and even-tempered, and though we may not agree on everything, we're willing to talk it out without mudslinging and backstabbing.

Okay, I lie, Jag is not a mature adult. Vikings are never mature. ( :P )
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Cadden »

But... I like my Legos! They're mine! You can't have them!
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Balsa »

No! I will fight you! And then spread foul rumors!!

Also, there are far too many announcements in the "Contact the Admin" forum. Alas, I am no longer a mod, so I cannot fix the clutter. :(
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Jagtai »

Ah, but Balsa, I've never claimed to be mature (or even-tempered) :P

Seriously, though, Balsa is right. It works in the SE, it can work on the general boards.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by SmokeMare »

Actually Balsa it's all the IM and PM OOC BS I'm referring to - just for the record.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Nichalus »

SmokeMare wrote:Actually Balsa it's all the IM and PM OOC BS I'm referring to - just for the record.
My only opinion on that is....if someone tells you that another person said something that was bad about you, or even bad about another member. You need to take it to the source.

We have too much of this 'he said, she said' bullshit. And that is what caused 'way' too much trouble a week or so ago. People saying things to one person, and then that person twisting the words to make it sound like something completely different and telling it to others.

For what means does a person do this?
Is it to gain favor, is it to twist others against other members? My opinion...yes.

It was like when I returned, and me and Ghost butted heads immediately. I was hearing through PMs and IMs from another, that 'people were afraid of me', that I was trying to 'take over'. Whatever....I want to write...period.

Me and Ghost talked, we learned the 'truth', because we 'talked in out', instead of hearing assumtions and obviously twisted words from others. We settled our differences, and we're getting along.

See how easy that was?
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Cadden »

What'chu talkin' 'bout? You are trying to take over! :P

Oh, wait, that was supposed to be a secret... crap....

*Flogs self*
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Balsa »

SmokeMare wrote:Actually Balsa it's all the IM and PM OOC BS I'm referring to - just for the record.
And I'm referring to that as well. If people grew up and realized that this is a freaking Star Wars fanfiction forum (as RP is a glorified form of collaborative fanfiction) and got some perspective, then we wouldn't have problems of rumors and slander (technically libel) running around in PMs and IMs.

I'll say it again: We're on a Star Wars fanfiction forum. Arguing about fanfiction. About how my faction can or can't do that. It's so ridiculous. Remember my comment about how 4chan is a better place than this? At least at 4chan they commit despicable acts in the guise of freedom of speech (among other things). Here, we gossip, we verbally and emotionally abuse one another for... what? Star Wars fanfiction? :raisedbrow:

So, yeah, if everyone here grew up just a bit, and went outside to get some perspective about what they're doing, then, yes, the place will improve.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Nichalus »

*shakes fist at Cadden* Damn you Cadden, I 'knew' you couldn't keep your mouth shut.

*points to the metal shed in the back of the forum.* "To the ''Cooler"....1 week." :mrgreen:
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Balsa »

Told you, Nich, you can't trust that guy.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by PrincessTabetha/BlackHunt »

Cadden knows nich plan? Balsa better make sure cadden does not escape and tell the others. :lightsaber: just kidding. :oldrazz:
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Cadden »

I never claimed otherwise, Balsa. :mrgreen:
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Re: Toughening up

Post by PrincessTabetha/BlackHunt »

Hoses cadden down with superweapon Kiar sliced then hands it to balsa before she vnaishes
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Who forgot to float away didn't have all that much to say couldn't even tell his own name or where my body goes.
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It's an animal thing
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Re: Toughening up

Post by coronhorn »

As long as I don't get warned because someone else isn't capable of behaving like an adult I'm fine with this...
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Balsa »

If someone else is acting up, and you take the bait and act up in the same way, you are just as guilty as he is. Someone else acting up does not give you the excuse to do the same.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by coronhorn »

I don't but I've been accused of baiting in the past, and baiting is something that is very subjective so that bit about warning people for that gave me pause because I can't control what other people think of what I write and I don't care to get warning because others take themselves entirely too serious.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Darkheyr »

I'm rather confused. First, it says we can discuss staff decisions. Then it says that:
Arguing that an administrative action should be reversed (which will not happen)
To be blunt, to me that sounds like we can discuss staff decisions as long as we agree with it.
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Re: Toughening up

Post by Balsa »

I think it's something more like:

Let's say Jag banned Balsa. (I know lots would probably be very happy since that'd cut down on the spam, but for the sake of the argument, let's pretend.) You can certainly post things asking why it happened and (civilly) voicing your discontent: "I disagree that Balsa was banned" or "I am unhappy that Balsa was banned", etc. But what you can't do is post something like "Balsa shouldn't have been banned and I want you to reverse your decision" or "The mods are abusing their power for banning Balsa!" or something.

No one's saying you can't disagree. You simply can't disagree and use your disagreement to campaign for a reversal.

Or, for a real-world example, many people might be unhappy that Obama got elected. That's fine. You can do that. What you can't do (according to our rules) is go around on television, start whining that Obama got elected, and publicly declare a recount. Something like that.
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