Decision regarding Moderators

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Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Jagtai » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:13 pm

Greetings, members of the unwashed masses of low breeding.

We, the Administrators and Moderators, have - after lengthy discussions in our shining ivory towers - decided that we will not be electing a new Moderator. We really don't any more unwashed, unbred peasants up here in our nice, clean towers, do we?

-----

In all seriousness, we have decided to make do with two Moderators. Should the need arise, we will add another Moderator when needed.

Thank you.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Vox » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:55 pm

Why aren't the masses allowed to decide? Like... I think three moderators is a good idea. We don't have a tie break for moderators at the moderator level. Which, is exactly where it's needed. Admins have no need to be involved.

It'd be simple to do.

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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Nichalus » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:21 pm

The decision has been made Vox. If a time comes where a third mod is needed. We will do so then.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Vox » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:24 pm

That didn't answer my question. That's just a heavy handed response that screams "we know what's best for you so sit down and shut up."

If you can provide me with an adequate, reasonable and satisfactory response I'll let it be. I see no reason why we shouldn't have three moderators. If two moderators was the correct number we would have gotten rid of a mod a while ago. Again, why can't the community decide if it wants three moderators?

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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Nichalus » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:32 pm

The simple answer is with the amount of active members, and half of them are Mods or Admins, there really isn't a need for a third Mod.

We really don't foresee any issue that could arise that would require a 'tiebreaker' Mod.

Now, that should answer your question.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Mir » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:58 pm

Two issues at play here:

1. Whether or not we should have a discussion/debate/vote on a third moderator
2. What the results of said discussion/debate/vote would be.

I don’t see what bars having discussion or debate on the topic. It’s not precisely clear in Jag’s post why Jag, Vague, and Nich reached their conclusion. It’s definitely vague, no Durin though. I think self-determination rules our site and I don’t see why that should not be the case going forward. It’s a direct cite of the rules themselves (one sentence though they may be) that sides in favor of having the discussion or debate. The Mod/Admin team should not “be dicks” in the sense of disallowing that discussion or debate. In a sense they are, in a sense they aren’t. But the scales tip far more to the side of “they aren’t” than they are, and I’ll explain why, leading to the second issue at play.

Nich has further clarified the reasoning behind the decision, and it makes sense. We are a smaller community and Vague and Nich have exhibited sound judgment in dealing with previously arising issues, with no apparent evidence that that would change. So while I agree with Vox that the discussion should take place, I think, gauging the perspectives of a majority of the members of this site, that said discussion would more than likely end up supporting the two moderator decision making.

While the Mod/Admin team is, from a point of view, acting potentially heavy handedly, they are, in end result, simply cutting out the middle step of having the discussion/debate/vote and going with the result that would most likely transpire.

Or in the words of our esteemed colleague from the great state (arguable) of Oklahoma (Boomer!), common sense should be more common, maybe even sold in stores.

Though he will tackle you if you opt to use a five finger discount coupon.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Cadden » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:30 pm

Mir wrote:It’s not precisely clear in Jag’s post why Jag, Vague, and Nich reached their conclusion.
I think you forgot a name, there.... :raisedbrow:

We did not come to this decision without thinking both sides of the argument, first. This was a decision made by the mods and admins because, as it has been put, we have a mere handful of active members leftover. This is a total count. Including the two greens, two reds, and the far lesser yellow-ish name on our users list. What, exactly, is the need for a third mod in a community that amounts to about a dozen active people, anyway? One could even argue we could get away with a "skeleton crew" of reds and greens, and narrow it down to two and one, respectively. (Goober, being the site owner, must remain as an admin, hence the two, there.)

We could do a community discussion, yes, but like you said, Mir, it would likely result in the same decision being made, anyway. If a "tiebreaker" is really the only reason why we need a mod, then I, personally, don't see it as a strong enough reason to counter those that justify not replacing Pryde's seat.

I would genuinely like to see a link to the rule, however, that states that we must put this kind of thing to community discussion. Because... I'm not seeing it. I'm not trying to start something, here, I just want to see the source of this argument.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Mir » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:46 pm

Cadden wrote:
Mir wrote:It’s not precisely clear in Jag’s post why Jag, Vague, and Nich reached their conclusion.
I think you forgot a name, there.... :raisedbrow:
:mrgreen: Mir's bad. Sorry, yeah, I forgot about ya. I didn't mean to.
Cadden wrote:I would genuinely like to see a link to the rule, however, that states that we must put this kind of thing to community discussion. Because... I'm not seeing it. I'm not trying to start something, here, I just want to see the source of this argument.
I did...kinda...cite to the rule: "It’s a direct cite of the rules themselves (one sentence though they may be) that sides in favor of having the discussion or debate. The Mod/Admin team should not “be dicks” in the sense of disallowing that discussion or debate."

I didn't say the community being involved is mandatory. The rule favors the discussion. As it so happens, the heavy handedness of the action is countered by any vote most likely panning out in favor of the decision.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Cadden » Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:16 pm

Gotcha. I misunderstood your meaning.

I don't think anyone is disallowing anything, here. If we weren't allowing discussion on the matter, I'd personally think the thread would have been locked, by now.

But I can't speak for the others on that one. If the community feels strongly enough about it, we can revisit the decision. Doesn't mean we'd change it, mind you, but we can at least revisit it.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Mir » Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:20 pm

I think also Vox is fighting against the establishment of a precedent.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Nichalus » Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:34 pm

We're not being 'dictators'. The decision was sound, thought out, and we are enacting it.

I mean, after all, its not like we're evoking a curfew that no one can write anything after a certain time. We aren't dictating that everyone can only make 1 post a day, or that you 'have' to post on a daily basis or you will be banned. We are all here to write...period.

No one with a Green or Red name, while they were growing up, were aspiring to be Dictators of a Story Writing Forum (well...maybe Jag did...I hear he wasn't the sharpest sword in the boat growing up. *smirk*), to rule it with a iron fist of keeping the little man down. There is really just an infinitesimal probability that could arise that would call for a third Moderator to break a 'tie' over something, when you weigh all the factors of how our community is at this point.

I mean, we're all here to write stories, have some laughs, watch Mir troll Jag (and vise versa).

If enough 'active' members actually feel 'that' strongly about it...meh...discuss away.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Cadden » Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:38 pm

Oh, that reminds me. 11pm Eastern Standard Time is the new curfew.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Mir » Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:53 pm

*posts at 11:04*
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Pryde » Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:58 pm

Jagtai wrote:Greetings, members of the unwashed masses of low breeding.

We, the Administrators and Moderators, have - after lengthy discussions in our shining ivory towers - decided that we will not be electing a new Moderator. We really don't any more unwashed, unbred peasants up here in our nice, clean towers, do we?

-----

In all seriousness, we have decided to make do with two Moderators. Should the need arise, we will add another Moderator when needed.

Thank you.
Aw, I was all set to nominate Mir to take my place. I can even make sure he bathes first! Oh well. :P
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Cadden » Sun Aug 21, 2016 4:59 pm

Mir wrote:*posts at 11:04*
IMPOSSIBRU!!!
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Pryde » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:07 pm

Nichalus wrote:(well...maybe Jag did...I hear he wasn't the sharpest sword in the boat growing up. *smirk*)
I always pictured Jag as more of a hatchet.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Vox » Sun Aug 21, 2016 7:11 pm

As MIr stated, I'm arguing because I don't like the precedent that has been set lately by the moderators and Jag lately. The thread with Pryde where Jag overstepped his boundaries by getting involved and implying that both Mir and I were subject to being disciplined, and yes Jag you did, along with the argument that we aren't allowed to argue with the moderators.

Now I'm going to lay this out at the beginning since text and my own reputation tend to skew in the way of my being an ass and trying to instigate a fight or cause trouble. I am doing neither with what I am about to say and I actually mean that. This isn't a disclaimer so much as it is me honestly stating "Don't take me the wrong way because I'm going explain my reasoning as best as possible."

To me Jag, Cadden and Goober (wherever he may be), have no business involved in any board related content outside of being an administrator. To me an administrator is someone who is handling the background stuff, database stuff, fixes issues with the board itself. Not moderation duties. If it were possible to have administrators and remove their ability to have any moderator powers what so ever, I would be completely for that. I would actually encourage it. There is a reason that we have both moderators and administrators. If admins were meant to handle everything we wouldn't have moderators to begin with. That being said, I think if anyone in the thread where the Pryde situation happened should have been warned, it was Jag. He openly implied that two community members could receive disciplinary action and in stating so overstepped not only his boundaries but given his authoritative assumptions of what an administrator is (in my view) and role abused said administrator power in my opinion. It was also a "Pryde you might want to consider warning them" vibe that I felt as well. Again, my own thoughts regarding the situation not necessarily what was actually going on but Jag has no business even stating what he did in that moment.

Moderators are meant to handle all situations regarding the community as a whole. Resolve conflicts OOC? Yup, that's their job. Guide debates regarding character disagreements and storyline development should the need arise? Yup, that's their job too. Keep the peace? Yup. Deal with disagreements? Yup. The list is rather long. What happened on the EFFL thread where the statement was made that disagreeing with a moderator was a warnable offense is frankly craziness to me and heavy handed. I don't like the idea that we aren't allowed to disagree on this forum with actions taken by a select group of people who I helped elect. This isn't a dictatorship, yet regardless of what you say Nich it certainly has the leanings of it lately. Saying that I or anyone else cannot disagree with a moderator is saying that I can't disagree with the President of my country or those in elected authority over me. Notice I said elected authority there is a reason for that emphasis. Going to work I'm submitting to my boss's authority and while I may not agree with that person I do what I say and can voice my disagreement with it should that relationship dictate as much.

Elected Officials are just that, elected. They serve because I elected them if they aren't acting in a manner I agree with it is my duty to speak up and say that. With that said there are certain times when keeping your mouth shut is wise. Getting another perspective is encouraged as well. If I disagree with something a moderator does on this forum you better believe I'm going to speak up. I encourage anyone who disagrees with a moderator and the actions they take to speak up. It is our duty to do so. Are there limits to this? Sure. Should common sense be employed at all times regarding this? Yes. That's why having a second opinion before you speak up to disagree is always a wise decision.

Disagreeing with the decision regarding only having two moderators isn't a disrespectful thing to me. I truly believe that two moderators is dumb. Not due to the amount of people but because there is no tie break. Administrators have no business being involved in Moderator discussions. Period. That isn't their role. Moderators handle community relations, personal strife, etc. as I stated before. That is why I think three moderators would be a wise decision. Jag, Cadden and Goober are not moderators and shouldn't have the power to do anything that moderators do. I think that both of the issues mentioned in this post have come with some heavy handedness that isn't necessary and also have been very exclusionary regarding the community as a whole. We elected the moderators, we have a right to speak up when you guys make a wide brushed catch all decision without approaching the community about it for discussion. If you disagree with that, that's fine. Step down from your role then you can't handle that. You agreed to be elected to the position you now hold as moderators. if you can't handle the fact that people disagree with you then you shouldn't be in the role in the first place. Your job is to be objective regardless of loyalties, stories or history. The two moderators we have at the moment have done an incredible job of being that way. I just think we need one more, not because they can't handle it but because it would be wise.

Now, I hope that isn't too argumentative. I did my best to explain exactly where I am coming from. I am not trying to ruffle any feathers or make anyone upset. I wanted to explain exactly my point of view so it was understood and that I was not viewed as simply someone looking to rock the boat or disagree to disagree. I don't like the direction those that are in authority in this community have taken lately and I disagree with both decisions that have been made and hope that this pattern doesn't continue. It reminds me too much of certain times in history where those in authority decide to abuse it because they thought they had the right to do so and had earned said right and they weren't serving the people they viewed as under them but instead should view it as those that they view as under them are actual the very reason they have said power and should treat them as such, to be respected and treated as such.

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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Jagtai » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:00 pm

Pryde wrote:Aw, I was all set to nominate Mir to take my place. I can even make sure he bathes first! Oh well. :P
*holds nose* I doubt any amount of water will be able to clean those peasants sufficiently. :oldrazz:
Nichalus wrote:No one with a Green or Red name, while they were growing up, were aspiring to be Dictators of a Story Writing Forum (well...maybe Jag did...I hear he wasn't the sharpest sword in the boat growing up. *smirk*), to rule it with a iron fist of keeping the little man down.
I didn't? I mean, I didn't. <.< >.>
Pryde wrote:
Nichalus wrote:(well...maybe Jag did...I hear he wasn't the sharpest sword in the boat growing up. *smirk*)
I always pictured Jag as more of a hatchet.
True...
Vox wrote:As MIr stated, I'm arguing because I don't like the precedent that has been set lately by the moderators and Jag lately. The thread with Pryde where Jag overstepped his boundaries by getting involved and implying that both Mir and I were subject to being disciplined, and yes Jag you did, along with the argument that we aren't allowed to argue with the moderators.

Now I'm going to lay this out at the beginning since text and my own reputation tend to skew in the way of my being an ass and trying to instigate a fight or cause trouble. I am doing neither with what I am about to say and I actually mean that. This isn't a disclaimer so much as it is me honestly stating "Don't take me the wrong way because I'm going explain my reasoning as best as possible."

To me Jag, Cadden and Goober (wherever he may be), have no business involved in any board related content outside of being an administrator. To me an administrator is someone who is handling the background stuff, database stuff, fixes issues with the board itself. Not moderation duties. If it were possible to have administrators and remove their ability to have any moderator powers what so ever, I would be completely for that. I would actually encourage it. There is a reason that we have both moderators and administrators. If admins were meant to handle everything we wouldn't have moderators to begin with. That being said, I think if anyone in the thread where the Pryde situation happened should have been warned, it was Jag. He openly implied that two community members could receive disciplinary action and in stating so overstepped not only his boundaries but given his authoritative assumptions of what an administrator is (in my view) and role abused said administrator power in my opinion. It was also a "Pryde you might want to consider warning them" vibe that I felt as well. Again, my own thoughts regarding the situation not necessarily what was actually going on but Jag has no business even stating what he did in that moment.
Vox, I wonder if you would feel the need to limit my freedom of speech, if I wasn't an Admin? I was not threatening anyone, I was expressing my opinion of what the Moderators ought to do (much like you are now). Expressing my opinion is not overstepping my boundaries; warning you and Mir would be.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Jagtai » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:00 pm

As for the discussion, no-one is limiting your right to discuss this decision.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Mir » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:10 pm

Jagtai wrote:As for the discussion, no-one is limiting your right to discuss this decision.
That's not what he means when he says discussion.
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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Vox » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:18 pm

Given your role as Admin Jag yes, your freedom of speech is limited. Much like any moderators freedom of speech is limited regarding what he or she cannot say regarding any situation given that once they decide to invoke or involve themselves using Moderator authority restricts their freedom of speech. By limiting freedom of speech I mean you need to choose your words carefully and think through how you say something. Everyone has freedom of speech but there are roles, positions of authority and circumstances that both limit and restrict that freedom given the respect and responsibility of the persons at that time and place. Moving on...

As I stated, the tone in which you responded and posted implied that you were carrying a certain authoritative tone to the conversation.
Jagtai wrote: Mir and Vox, stop trolling the Moderator. I can assure you, he can very easily make you regret it. :twisted:

Now, go play with yourselves instead of bothering Pryde (pun intended).
That is a direct quote of what you said. There is no opinion stated there. That is a direct, finite statement made by someone in authority.

An opinion of your statement would have looked like this:

Mir and Vox, I think you two are getting a bit heated towards Pryde let's tone it back a bit. It appears to me that you two might be being disrespectful towards him.

That is an opinion Jag. Nowhere in the quoted statement from that thread is there an opinion. You were not opinionated. You were authoritative. I also never said you were threatening. I said you implied.

An easy way to resolve said issue is to make an addendum to the board rules that states the administrators will not under an circumstances outside of using their powers to impose a ban (because Moderators cannot actually execute a ban correct?) be involved or use any moderating powers ever. That any moderation duties, powers and the like fall to the moderators and administrators are not to have any roles or powers in that area. We can make the legalise talk more official but it would remove the threat or hint of power from the whole situation.
Jagtai wrote:As for the discussion, no-one is limiting your right to discuss this decision.
I took this:
Nichalus wrote:The decision has been made Vox. If a time comes where a third mod is needed. We will do so then.
As a rather emphatic "this isn't up for discussion" statement.

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Re: Decision regarding Moderators

Post by Nichalus » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:24 pm

This isn't happening, and nothing good can come from this.

Your disagreement with what we have done is noted. But that is the way it is going to be, and this thread will be locked. If you have anything further that you would like to add, send it to myself and Vague, and it will be responded to accordingly. Any further attempt to repost, or create a new thread over this issue 'will' be met with a Official Warning.

If you have issue with what I have done here, there is a process for having me removed. You send a PM to the Admins, and then they will discuss the merits of your complaint and move forward according to their decision.
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