WoH Power Grid

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WoH Power Grid

Post by Jagtai » Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:56 pm

Hey. I've been looking at the marvel wiki, and noticed this:

http://marvel.wikia.com/Power_Grid

What do you think, should we do something similar? It would be a quick and easy way to gauge a characters powers compared to others.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:16 pm

We had something like that with the power levels, but people just stopped using it. I mean, if that's something that people want to use, then that's cool.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Cadden » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:14 pm

What we had before was a chaotic mess. That's why people stopped using it. We'd need to completely revamp what we used into this one, and to make it work to where people might actually use it, integrate it into the infoboxes.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:19 pm

Most of the marvel databases have it in there, so for copy characters it should be fairly simple to obtain. The issue arises for original characters. That goes back to the whole idea of certain levels (like Wolverine's level of healing factor or Jean Grey's telepathy/telekinesis) belonging only to those copy characters. Which is something I know Jag's not in favor of.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Jagtai » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:26 pm

Why does the issue arise for original characters? It's fairly simple:

Wolverine regenerates. That gives him Durability 4 in the Power Grid (case in point). Anyone else able to regenerate also get a 4. That doesn't mean that anyone with a 4 in Durability has Wolverine-level healing, just that they can regenerate.

Jean Grey is able to discharge multiple forms of energy (this includes any telepathy/telekinesis). This gives her an Energy Projection of 6 (case in point). Anyone else with similar power gets Energy Projection 6. That doesn't mean that anyone with a 6 in Energy Projection has Jean Grey-level telepathy, just that they can discharge several forms of energy.

I made one for Malice, in fact, just to test it. He gets Intelligence 5 (Genius), Strength 4 (Superhuman, because he can lift up to a ton using telekinesis), Speed 3 (700 mph), Durability 4 (because he can regenerate), Energy Projection 6 (same as Jean Grey, but with other powers and nowhere near as strong), and Fighting Skills 2 (because he's never learned to fight). Not exactly 6's or 7's all around.

The numbers are purely a superficial categorization of their abilities, it doesn't necessarily mean that Malice could square off against Jean Grey and force a draw, just because their EP is similar. But together with the power descriptions, they make it much easier to gauge the strength of an individual.

I'm not sure how to integrate it into the infoboxes, though.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Cazzik » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:05 am

Honestly, I'm not in favor of this. I feel like it will just turn into a giant pissing match about who's character is more powerful. However, if this is something everyone else wants to do then I will run with it and integrate it into my articles as well.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Jagtai » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:13 am

That's just the thing - the Power Grid is no different from the power levels, except much easier to categorize. Having a high number doesn't make you better than anyone else, it just shows that you are powerful in that particular area.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:55 am

Except that it makes it more confusing. Because if someone's just looking at in a general overview way, then Malice appears to be as good as Jean Grey in those departments. In order to properly find out, one needs to read the text of the power description anyway. Honestly, I think Marvel did it because they had it on the collectible cards many years ago. Also, it's easier for them, because most people already know their overall character system as in you're going to be hard pressed to find a character who's on the same level of Wolverine when it comes to a healing factor. Deadpool's the one that comes to mind off the top.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Jagtai » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:20 am

You're just mad that Wolverine doesn't get a 7, is what you are. :P

How are the power levels better? This is a quick visual guide, which is much better than reading through a page of stuff that says exactly what the power grid will.

EDIT: Besides, nobody is gonna assume Malice is at Jean Grey's level.

I'm starting to think we should start another WoH forum where copy chars are forbidden - like it should have been in the first place.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:25 am

I don't have Wolverine. I could care less about Wolverine's stats Jag. :D

It would not. Because then according to the grid, Malice, at 6, has the same level of output, control, and skill, as Jean Grey, also a 6. But you said he doesn't. The only way to properly know, is to read the power description, regardless. To the average person or the person quickly looking things over to get a feel for the character, that can be confusing. And since we're a reading and writing, storyline oriented forum, what's the problem in having people read a few sentences, possibly even a few paragraphs about a power?

In regards to your Edit: You realize that WoH was started with the idea of Copy Characters, yeah? :P
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Jagtai » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:44 am

I'm sure it was; therein lay the first mistake.

I don't know why you mind the power grid; I'm not seeing any ideas coming from you.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:47 am

I don't mind it:
Mirrodin wrote:We had something like that with the power levels, but people just stopped using it. I mean, if that's something that people want to use, then that's cool.
I just don't think it's useful. If the majority want it, then awesome. However:
Cadden wrote:What we had before was a chaotic mess. That's why people stopped using it. We'd need to completely revamp what we used into this one, and to make it work to where people might actually use it, integrate it into the infoboxes.
Cazzik wrote:Honestly, I'm not in favor of this. I feel like it will just turn into a giant pissing match about who's character is more powerful. However, if this is something everyone else wants to do then I will run with it and integrate it into my articles as well.
So consider me the guy helping you to revamp it by pointing out things that may not work with it. :mrgreen:
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Jagtai » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:36 pm

Right now, we have two in favour, one kinda against, and one against. How do we solve that one (besides giving other people more time)? A poll (everyone loves polls)?
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:46 pm

I view it as one in favor (you), two kinda against (me and Cadden), and one fully not in favor (Cazzik). Both me and Cadden have said that we support it as long as it's set up properly. :D

I say give it more time.

Which gives us time to talk/hash out how to make it better.

Personally I'm not seeing how exactly to do that with just numbers and that grid alone. The thing is that if you do it in combination with the power description, then I mean, me personally, I feel as though it just complicates it.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Cadden » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:31 pm

I didn't realize you were referring to those power chart thingies, Jag. The infobox thing would be horrible if that were the case.

I'm not a huge fan of the chart concept 'cause it puts a generalized label on a specific attribute. Not to mention disagreements about the character's attribute will undoubtedly arise. For example... is Wolverine a 4 or a 7 in Durability? Both are feasible. He's regenerative, but with his adamantium he's also bulletproof (for the most part), has been DESCRIBED as possessing superhuman durability, and is, in fact, virtually indestructible when you consider what few things can actually permanently kill him.

But then, we have to define "virtually indestructible." What does that mean? You're god-like? You're very hard to kill? What? I don't know, do you? How would we come to a consensus? And should we add an 8 to that and just flat out say "indestructible?"

To continue the Wolverine example... Marvel says he has an average intelligence, according to that chart, but comics and lore shows he's more likely to posses either learned or "gifted" intelligence.

I could go on, but I don't want to miscommunicate that I really care. ;)

The point is... integrating it as it is would prove problematic. I don't want to adhere to set-in-stone values from another site, just because some yahoo over at Marvel who probably doesn't even know the character that well to begin with says so. And we'd have to define each value. After that, then maybe it'd work out.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Ghost » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:00 am

I honestly, and speaking as a person whom Mir neglected to mention as a frequent poster of WoH ;_; Love the way we have it set now.

The classification system realistically works cause if I recall the system from other members informing me, and the system you just presented, it would turn out to be a huge pissing contest overall.

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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Jagtai » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:52 am

The current classification system lists what type of mutant the character is, and what strength (and only strength) level it has. How does that work?

And if my system turns into a pissing match, it's because there's something wrong with the WoH people, not because there's something wrong with the system.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Cadden » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:37 am

I agree with Jag on that one. (I know, scary thought.) If it turns into a pissing contest, it's not the system, but the people who abuse the system, that are the problem.

My only problem with the chart is that it needs to be catered to how we run the WoH, not catered to how the Marvel or DC Wikias run their shows. The VE started out as a carbon copy of Wookieepedia, sure, but that's also because it was young. We've developed into our own thing since then. We bear similarities to Wook, but it ends there. Why would we have to adhere to strict policies and settings put forth by another Wikia, at all? I'd be willing to give this a go, if we can work it out for us, and not just put a carbon-copy and leave it at, "We're doing what they do. Period." That won't end well.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:41 am

That's why I don't think that a straight up numbers system would work. But that's me. :D. I do agree that some system would be beneficial however.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Halomek » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:34 am

Throwing my two cents in on this one… For situations like Wolverine, why not include an asterisk next to durability to note his healing ability? Adamantium-laced bones aside, Wolvie isn’t actually any more durable than a normal person, he just recovers fast from damage. For example, bullets will pierce his skin like any normal person, whereas someone truly durable, like the Hulk, isn’t bothered by bullets at all.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:37 am

I think because the grid is based on marvel's definition, which is more "What can't kill you" or a "What can you bounce back from." idea. :D

Asterisk could work for Healing Factors, but now we run into an issue. We've used an asterisk for a healing factor. Are we going to come up with a bunch of symbols for different either one off or small case (How many chars have legit healing factors) situations? Does that mean we need to include a legend? That's why I think it can get too complex and confusing.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Halomek » Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:50 am

Or we can just simplify it so that durability is only about the ability to resist damage, not recover from it.

We don't have to copy their power scale verbatim. For example, to deal with regenerators, we could add another bar for them and call it "recovery time" or something like that.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:04 pm

Halomek wrote:Or we can just simplify it so that durability is only about the ability to resist damage, not recover from it.

We don't have to copy their power scale verbatim. For example, to deal with regenerators, we could add another bar for them and call it "recovery time" or something like that.
I agree with that one.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Jagtai » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:21 pm

I never said we had to introduce a carbon copy of that power grid - I just want a power grid, is all ;)

And actually, the power grid is for resisting damage - that's why Wolverine scores a 4 (Regenerative) while, say, someone bulletproof would score a 5. It doesn't mean that Wolverine can resist less damage than the bulletproof character, just that Wolverine regenerates the bullet damage while the other ignores it. Ignoring damage is still better than just regenerating it, even if you're Wolverine (I'm sure he'd prefer a kevlar vest in any event).
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by DarthYnoj » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:09 pm

Put up a vote the most fair for me the third eye who does not RP there....Let the people decide always i love this solution.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Ghost » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:02 am

Hmm, I'm on the fence.

I see pros and cons on both sides but I've been content with doing what I have been doing.

I have always displayed weakness in my characters.

My characters have always been able to get beat up and so forth or been weak to some degree.

^_^ Look at my threads, either way. I have to consider some factors. Like how it would work for Rachel, Allyson, Charlotte and such.

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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Halomek » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:46 am

Well, I went ahead and added the power grid to the wiki and tested it out. It's basically a carbon copy of the one on the Marvel Wiki, but I made a couple of changes to it so that there's a second section for supers that either transform or use a battlesuit, as seen with the Psionic: http://starwars-exodus.wikia.com/wiki/Psionic

His stats are based on the Marvel scale purely for demonstrative purposes. If you guys decide you want to use the power scale, we can easily alter or add to it depending on how the scale is defined.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Jagtai » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:09 am

It looks good to me.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by DarthYnoj » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:39 am

I like it also even though i am not on WoH.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:52 am

I applied it to Spade http://starwars-exodus.wikia.com/wiki/Spade

What do you guys think?
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Ghost » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:54 am

Problem for me is the true application to my characters.

Meh.

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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Shaggy » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:02 pm

ok I have a question

what is considered normal human strength and such. Is that a level 1 or is it 0?
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:05 pm

I'm following the Marvel guidelines.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Power_Grid
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Shaggy » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:55 am

thank you, that helps out a lot
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Halomek » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:58 pm

Did you guys want to add or change anything with the power grid, like stamina or regeneration speed? Because the time to do it is now, before it gets used too heavily.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Ghost » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:39 pm

I still feel at a loss with this.

I guess it's cause in all honesty as much of an *** as I can be at times with certain things, I don't feel I can properly judge my characters power levels.

I mean, I wrote out her stuff in comparison with the specific characters but beyond that I'm unsure. I guess I'm asking for help?

@Omek, Sure sounds like a good thing.

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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Halomek » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:14 pm

There's a scale for the current version here to give you an idea where a character would fall, Ghost: http://starwars-exodus.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Ratings

Also, did you mean you're good with it or you want to change it?
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:19 pm

Regeneration Speed I think would definitely be good in addition to durability.
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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Ghost » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:41 pm

Halomek wrote:There's a scale for the current version here to give you an idea where a character would fall, Ghost: http://starwars-exodus.wikia.com/wiki/Power_Ratings

Also, did you mean you're good with it or you want to change it?
I like the concept of adding the two to the group.

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Re: WoH Power Grid

Post by Mir » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:43 pm

I'm cool with Stamina as well if people are interested. We just need to come up with what the 1-5 will be.
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